Hate is hate is hate.  Killers are killers are killers.  Whatever.

I'm watching 'Final Report' on NGC right now.  It's about Columbine HS and those swell young men that systematically killed and wounded their classmates, a teacher, and then themselves.

Oops, that wasn't recent enough, so I guess it doesn't count.

I have a question for those of you that HATE someone because of a religion that you don't understand.  That you HATE someone or something, and then lump them all into one hateful, ignorant lump:  What in the hell word would you have used before September 11?

For CA:  Okay, let's forget the Crusades-great.  But you can't forget N Ireland-sorry I was living in the UK when the Protestants were being so nice and hurling rocks at little Catholic children on their way to school because it was on 'their' street.  I lived in the UK from 2000-03.

Sorry if the Okalahoma City bombings are soooo last century.  Oh yeah, and the Atlanta Olympic bombing that was committed by that coward the blew up the Planned Parenthood then hid out in the woods.

You guys want to argue about the hatred and violence of one religion or another, go ahead.  But hey, try looking at the violence that happens every single day in this country by just about anybody.  Violence that serves no rhyme or reason.

I know, let's just go 'make a parking lot' out of all those countries with 'those' people.

Excuse me-as one that has aligned herself with terrorists, I shall be done.

PEACE!

Scott - Your ignorance in math is noted.  And keep saying liberal like it's a bad thing.  It makes me giggle.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do evil from religious conviction...Pascal

Fear first created the gods...Santayana...

Scott...I knew you would mention the Philippines and Indonesia...Many, if not most, of the Jihadist bombings in both countries have been traced back to al Qaeda, bin Missing, I mean bid Liden, and the Taliban network...Suicide bombings and Jihad are indigenous to the Middle East, which the Middle East has spread around the world...endemic ot the Muslims in the Middle East...since Indonesia is the most populated Muslim country, it is a safe haven for the al Qaeda network...Experts agree that the terrorist attacks within Indonesia—including a December 2000 church-bombing campaign, the August 2001 bombing of a Jakarta shopping mall by a Malaysian national, the August 2003 bombing outside the Marriot Hotel in Jakarta, and the October 2005 suicide bombings in Bali—are connected to the al Qaeda network...Abu Sayyaf is a terrorist organization in the Philippines with connections to al Qaeda and bin Liden...I concede there is probably some homegrown Jihad too...

Scott I do agree, cannot believe that I just wrote that, the Middle Eastern Muslims are more prone to bombings and violence than most other religions...however, Scott, remember the violence and bombings in Northern Ireland over religion...sure, the IRA has calmed done a bit...but many IRA bombs have killed people in the name of Christ...wasn't that long ago...lots of religious fanatics in the world...Middle Eastern Jihadists may lead the way in 2007, but many have come before them...

Ever hear of rhetoric, Scott?...developed by the Sophists...the art of argument and persuasion...I taught rhetoric; English is just the words...building arguments and arguing is what rhetoric orginally meant...

Right on Jamie!!

C A - I do take a bit of exception with your "Arab Muslim" statement.  I here you; however, Pakistanis, Asians and most of India are predominantly Muslims and they are not Arab.  Pakistanis, in particular, do not like us!!  I agree that "today" we are seeing more attacks from Muslims; however, one cannot simply speak in the timeframe of "today", nor state the fanatics are "Arab Muslims".  It is simply not true and it does an injustice to both Arabs and the Islamic faith.  I very rarely disagree with you; however, I do here.  Also, while attacking Scott's spelling is unkind, as I have made hundreds of both spelling and grammatical errors on my blogs; when someone calls someone an "idiot", followed by directly attacking one’s "math skills", I believe there are those occasions where they deserve to be put in their place. I could be wrong, as I am many times. I have ignored Scott most recently; however, I will never forget him accusing Jamie of "being aligned with the terrorists" because she feared for her brother, who was preparing to deploy to Iraq.  I will also never forget Jamie's beautiful reply back to Scott, where she told all of us here about her brave service to this country, in addition to many of her family members that proudly served this country.  Scott has crossed lines many times. I agree that I used to immediately respond via “attack”; however, because of yours and Independent's words of wisdom, I pray and fight replying to him and have been able to ignore him.  I believe today, after what he wrote to Todd, he deserved to be put in his place.  After insulting Todd numerous times, i.e. "you wrote your own law degree", etc. he then had the audacity to say "you’re probably a junior high teacher". Ok, he called Todd a liar and insulted the teaching profession simultaneously.  The teaching profession, in my opinion, is one of the most honorable and challenging professions there is, and insulting this profession was indeed a disgrace. It was also disgraceful to verbally assault Jamie as he did.  Thank you.

Pam: Exception noted. But be reminded that Scott knows exactly what he is doing and some of you are falling for it. While making attempts to defend against Scott's intolerance he brings out a degree of intolerance that exist in some here. Yes, there is varying degrees of intolerance in everyone on this blog, and for those who wish to deny it I would be the first to call them liars. I do not condone name calling you know that, but what Scott has done is reverse the role of those who proclaim they also do not condone name calling. And when others allow Scott's comments to control the conversation (10 reponses immediately to his one post) then you open the door for intolerance to spew from both sides. In effect, Scott has won for he is controling others on this blog. But if he never wins he loses control and would not return to play another game. As you know I believe those on the right have become very intolerant of others. All I am saying is to be careful not to allow the same to trap you into expressing what many of us accuse them of (intolerance). Don't let them force you to allow your intolerances to come to the surface. If people do wish to recognize and respond to people as Scott then bring them into the fold and use the power of persuasion to gain some cooperation out of them no matter how nasty they may be, because attempting to persuade them while also keeping them at arms length will never work. All it takes is finding one, just one tiny portion of their comments that you can swallow some pride and find a way to agree with them. When you do this, you have them. They will come into the spiders web. They may continue to disagree with you but the name calling will drastically decrease. Just remember the times in the past when Scott called me twice as many names and of a more vicious nature then he has with any others in here. He and I still no longer see eye to eye on most issues but his personal attacks against me have stopped, as I noticed they have decreased with you as well.        

Regarding terrorists and acts of violence currently taking place across the globe including yes, here in the States as Jamie so willingly pointed out (Oklahoma, Atlanta, the Planned ParentHood facility), I will stick with my comment that now, at this time, the largest and most vicious amounts of brutal acts of terrorists religious violence is coming from persons of a middle eastern nationality who have abandoned the true faith of Islam and have replaced it with a violent substitute. I am in no way including all Muslims or people of a middle eastern religion or nationality. And I agree that the act of killing is no different here as it is in Iraq, Pakistan, North Korea, China, Russia, India, Austrailia, whereever. Killing is killing as I believe Jamie stated. But the purpose behind the killings, the intent, is not always the same and is more ferocious and fanatical coming from those who claim a religious right and a religious purpose to do so. And those twisted religious off-springs that promise heavenly rewards for those who sacrafice themselves in the name of that religion are even more dangerous and more agressive. They can be unstoppable (ask Isreal). I know about violence in other parts of the world. The majority of you here are younger and I pray you will not have to experience further horrors of any type of violence or the effects of violence as Oklahoma, Atlanta, 911, Iraq, Planned PareentHood facility bombings, or any other violence to which you may have been exposed. But I have seen it, lived it and participated in it, both in Vietnam and later in another role, and alone, that took me to places as most countries in South America, yes Jamie Northern Ireland, much of the Middle East, Russia, North  Korea, Great Britain, Indonesia, Isreal, Palestine, Beruit, most of Europe and many other countries. And I can tell you that although some of you have experienced violence and/or the effects of violence on yourself or loved ones, you have not a clue and never wish to experience the types of violence that these types of people can bring down upon you day in and day out with no rest or time for breaks until the day they put you in the ground. And the same applies to the US. It has not a clue what on-going daily loss of life resulting from terrorists acts by religious fanatics can do to the psyche of a nation and each individual citizen and their ability too remain tolerant human beings. There would be no comparisons then or even acknowldgement that others of another religious persuasion have also been violent. Your world will be centered solely on the destruction of those who have done you and yours harm and your intolerances will surface quickly against those of a similar nationality or religious persuasion. And do not say otherwise until you have experienced it. I hope you don't, but if you do, it will not come from numerous Tim McVeighs, Northern Ireland, those countries who sponsored the Crusades, Europe, Indonesia, etc. It will come from those who have been persuaded that their self destructive acts of terrorism will gain them a special place next to their Islamic God for taking out as many western devils as they possibly could. I agree we are in a different kind of war with middle eastern bred terrorists regardless of whose fault it is we are hated so much. And you need to also accept that as fact. I do not agree with how this administration is waging that war. And as with any person or leader or fanatic whose purpose is to do the US harm you bring them into the fold as a friend and keep them in your hip pocket until the day they succumb to your persuasions not to do you harm or until you need to cut their throat. I have never kept my enemies or those who wish me harm or who may have called me names at arms length. Only a fool does that. I have kept them in my hip pocket, in my web, and I am still alive and unscathed.

C A - Thank you!! I did agree, as noted in my post, that "today", Muslim extremists are carrying out violent attacks in the Middle East.  Where I differ with your original post is your reference that this violence is being carried out by mostly Arab Muslims. With the horrific violence and atrocities committed in Darfur, which have been ignored by this Administration and in large part by the media, this lends much credence to your argument regarding Muslim violence “today”.  Much different than the Second Sudanese Civil War, where northern Muslims were fighting Christian and Animist in the south, most all of the fighters and victims in the current conflict are Muslim.  However, it is not solely Arab Muslims, as evidenced by last summer’s successful efforts by the British to uncover the terrorist plot to use liquid explosives on American-owned airlines. These young men were “home grown” terrorists, born and raised in England. Pakistan is filled with terrorists who are not Arab. This lends much credence to Jamie’s argument. I still staunchly believe that when people dangerously enter the area of discussing religious conflict and attack one religion in doing so, it is unfair. Past conflicts are an important reminder that ALL religions are guilty of atrocities and crimes against humanity; and it is not just “today’s” conflicts that should be discussed. One must be very careful in their writing and word choice. I personally do believe Scott was attacking Muslims, ignoring past religious conflicts and ignoring domestic terrorism, which is why he received the responses he did, i.e. Ireland, Planned Parenthood clinics, etc. I also agree with Jamie and firmly believe we, as a nation, must look in a mirror prior to insulting a religion or painting all “Arabs” with one brush.  In my opinion, I believe Scott’s word choice implied such. I really enjoyed your response.  

Thanks, George from NJ.  I didn't explode or catch fire because I have seen that little bit of nonsense before and I have always thought he was a planted puppet just like Roberts and Scalia (who is probably a co-conspirator with Cheney - look into their "close personal relationship" if you doubt it).  However, given the nature of the material, your concern over my combustibility is both merited and appreciated.  As much as I disliked Rehnquist (ok, loathed), this current bunch makes him look like Mr. Roger's.  I am a long time advocate for limits being placed on Supreme Court Justices' service because of the very situation we see today.  

My biggest complaint?  The Lifetime Appointment.  The lifetime appointment HELPS fascists like Bush, it does not ensure the independent power of the judiciary as it was designed.  At this point, the only way to ensure an independent judiciary is to PROPERLY Amend the Constitution to impose term limits.  You should be able to be on the Supreme Court for a term of 15 years or retire at age 65, whichever comes first.  That would provide enough stability over time to retain (enhance at this point) political independence while ensuring enough new blood is introduced to keep the Court dynamic and responsive (something it is not today).  It would also cycle out the bought and paid for quicker.  I for one, really want Darth Scalia gone and have since day one.  In addition to Alito and Roberts, Justice Thomas needs to go as well.  He was only marginally qualified to start with and he's been riding someone's coat tails since he got there.  Not a big original thinker, that Thomas, and God knows you wouldn't want to drink after him.  Scott, if you are reading this, that was a pubic hair joke in case the ball went through that hole in your glove.  

Again George, thanks for the info and for continuing to prove that English teachers are a wealth of knowledge.  I confess a bias in that area as English Lit is one of my undergrad degrees.  So keep the good stuff coming . . . just try to leave Chaucer out of it.

Pam: I cannot say for sure that Scott was attacking a religion. I'm not sure when he referenced the Muslim extremist he was not attacking the religion but rather those fanatics who have twisted that religion in order to carry out their war against the west or any that will stand in their way including their own people. I suppose it is difficult to both express oneself and to read into people when any reference to a religion, culture, people, race, whatever is used in a discussion. Are they attacking the religion or those identified with the religion and who have used it to attack and kill others.

I believe Scott used the statement "the Muslims who believe in suicide and jihad". That is not attcking the religion nor is it attacking Muslims who do not believe in suicide murder or jihad. That is attacking those who have twisted that religion for their own brutal use. Scott also did state "we're talking about a lot of Muslims". Again, although we may or may not agree with what he means by a lot, he was not attcking the religion as much as he was those who support and encourage suicide bombings or other types of bombings to kill others.

But don't ask me, perhaps someone should ask Scott rather than taking offense before we know his true intent. If he is reading these posts let's ask him. Scott, are you attacking the Muslim religion in general and stating that the religion is responsible for much of the violence occuring today, or are you attacking those who use the Muslim religion and have twisted the true religion for their own hateful and murderous purposes? And I don't think that Scott disagrees that others have twisted and used other religions to cause and create a great deal of violence towards others in the past, some in the recent past as in Northern Ireland. I think rather than responding so quickly and immediately to people we need to try and read between the lines of what they are stating and if still not sure as to their position or true intent before we respond simply ask them to clairfy their thoughts and opinions.  

George.  Please ignore the comma splice.  I don't proof this stuff.  lol

C A - Another well written and extremely well thought out piece of work!! I believe your question regarding asking Scott what he meant is not only a very valid question; I staunchly believe he should answer it, in large part, based on his past writings.

As far as "reading between the lines" where Scott is concerned, based on his collective opinions via multiple posts on this blog, I did read between the lines prior to coming to my conclusion.  Scott has expressed a great deal of bigotry and hatred towards Muslims; however, I sincerely HOPE I came to the wrong conclusion, but I have very serious doubts.

It will be interesting to read Scott's answer, if indeed he does answer your question.  PEACE FRIEND!!

Todd...I couldn't agree more...the Supreme Court influences our lives more than any politician can...I had always been miffed as to why the Justices get a political appointment for life...I totally agree the Supreme Court Justices should have term limits just like the Presidents that nominate them....so how do we go about changing the law??? Any suggestions my friend? Don't worry about a comma splice...not formal writing!!! no grammar police here...I err too!!! lol...

Pam, thanks for your response. A lot of the posts here are very insightful unlike some sites that make you recoil from the pure hatred and venom towards Muslims and anything related to Islam.

"The crazy Christians are marginalized; the Muslims who believe in suicide bombings and jihad are mainstream." - Scott, how do you justify making a statement like that? What do you really know about mainstream Islam? Don't swallow everything that the biased media feeds you.

scottv wrote: "Your arguments on this Todd, are like comparing a nuclear weapon to a rifle, after all both can kill."
Funny thing there is that the Muslims have the rifles and the Christians have the nuclear bombs... ok, not funny, but ironic...

C A:  This will be my last post on the topic of Muslim vs. Christians and their abilities to kill-whether now or then, and all of the violence that exists everywhere in the world.

I don't address some people on here directly, and I do that for a reason.  However, whether one comes on here to play devils advocate, or they are just blatantly ignorant, then so be it.  Scott may or may not be just that person.

That being said, things have been posted on here that have been hateful towards Muslims in general-hence the bringing up of what Christians have done in the past.  You may try and dismiss it, but it is fair comparison.  This isn't Disneyland and we can't erase the past.

You can come on here with your experience and try to be some sort of voice of reason, that's fine, but I don't need anybody to try and explain away someone elses hatred.  I respect the fact that you have obviously seen the horrors of what one human can do to another, but it's not fair to post as though we shouldn't speak out!  I'm sorry that you have witnessed what you have, and like you, I pray that I never have to.  However, to minimize our feelings, and I feel that is what you are doing, isn't fair.

I don't like Scott.  Plain and simple.  And yes, I'm posting as though he isn't around.  He is very mean, accusatory, etc..  It used to bother me what he said, but after his blatantly ignorant accusation of me, his post just began fodder.

Don't bother to respond to this post C A.  Like I said, you can try and be the voice of reason, but you can't change the way people feel or how they should respond-it's called human nature!

PEACE!

George, it is nice to see that you follow the wisdom of Steve Martin when he said, "Some people have a way with the English language and some people have not way."

PA: If Scott is predjdice towards the Muslim popoulation in any way I would never defend any inferred statements he may make. I am awaiting a reply from Scott to the questions I posed to him in a post above. I am asssuming at this point that Scott is not anymore predjudice or intolerant than any of us here but lets his words and statements get the best of his intented opinions. So I assume that when Scott speaks of crazy Christians he is not speaking of all Christians but those who kill others in the name of their religion or God (i.e. Family Planning Clinics). I also think that when Scott speaks of those mainstream suicide bombers and jihadists he is not accusing the entire Muslim population or community of such acts but only those extremist who kill others in the name of their religion and God.

The fact is PA, the only people who can stop the extremists using both religions for purposes of hate and violence, any religion for that matter, are those who are good, kind, caring and devoted members of those religions. Muslims must speak out against the extremist who use and twist the religion of Islam for the purpose of waging death and war on others. Christians must speak out against those who use and twist the religion of Christianity for the purpose of waging death and war on others. Regarding Iraq, the religious leaders and good, kind and devoted Sunni and Shiite people must condemn and speak out forcefully against those who use their religion to wage death and war aginst one another. They must be the ambassadors and the diplomats. No other people including and especially those from the US can do this for them. It must be resolved from within. The same applies to the Palestinians. Their troubles and those created with other nations as Isreal can only be resolved by the Palestinian people themselves. If they have issues with Israel and were to learn and understand how to play the role of the down and trodden, while ceasing the violence committed by the few extremists they would have the entire world supporting their causes. Think of the Chinese student standing his ground defenseless in front of a Chinese tank versus those extemists Palestinians who strap bombs to themselves and set them off on Israelis buses or in Israelis restaurants. Which of the two can expect world support? Which of the two can expect less tolerance for their people as a reesult of those extremists who claim they represent their interests and their religion? Is it right that others will become less tolerant of a people because of the actions of a few within their population? No, it is not right. It is however one of the frailties and blemishes of human nature. With this understanding those who are good and non-violent within that race, nationallity or religion must do whatever they can to denounce, reject and elimnate those extremists within their ranks. I know that the majority of Muslims and those who belong to the Islam religion are attempting to do just that and I commend them for it.

One other thing. While working out their issues internally the Iraqi people as well as other Arab States in the area need to tell George Bush to get the hell out of their country and mind his own business.      

Re: The Christian vs. Muslim propensity for violence and the like. I'd just like to say DEATH TO ALL FANATICS!! Thanks

Jamie - Thank you for reading my mind, as it saved me a great deal of writing and time!! My sentiments about Scott, his bigotry, his hatred, etc. are a DIRECT result of what HE has posted.  I thought long and hard last night about Scott, and after examining his writings, current and past, I came to the conclusion I did.  I "read between the lines", and my conclusion still stands.

We all have indeed been guilty of writing "something" here, and myself surely included; however, these “writings” are not even in the same ballpark as Scott’s insults directed at others, like you, have been.  I will NEVER forget, as noted in my above post, his unspeakable assault on you.

It will be interesting to see if he responds to C A's question. However, I agree with you completely and I believe the ball is now in Scott’s court. PEACE FRIEND!!

How much of that cocaine was Rudy snorting and the rest of his gang. You don't have one guy on the bus who just happens to deal cocaine and none of the other Republican rollers aren't snorting their share. Staying up late boys? Rudy could be pimping for much of lower Manhattan for all we know. Who knows what goes on in American politics. Politicians sure don't parade in open cars, stand on balconies or take shortcuts through kitchens. Cocaine, swimming all around my brain. Ask Rudy how much he's doing and if he and his staff would submit to a drug test like any high school student just to clear it all up. Rudy's a bad boy!!

Thanks Todd I needed a laugh. good one.

C A, what voice do we really have here in the US at this present time? When we try to speak who really listens? We recently had an "Open Mosque Day" to create a dialogue and foster some understanding and maybel dispel some myths concerning Islam. Hardly anyone showed up, people would not even take the flyers when we tried to hand them out. Most people have made up their minds and there's no changing them. If we try to speak out we'll be branded as unpatriotic and maybe even terrorist symphathizers, even though we have made our lives here. Dare we say anything? Concerning Iraq, what are the general populace to do, they are fleeing their country in droves just to survive. Muslims are killing Muslims, with no regard to the innocent lives that are being lost, it is not about religion, it is only about power. This horrible situation was created when this Administration decided to invade this country, where was world sympathy then? Nobody came to their aid and now they are in an abyss of hell, from which there is no escape. Taking of innocent lives is deplorable, be it by suicide bombing or by bombs from the air.

PA.  Back in the early Eighties, I became friends with a guy from Iran.  He had become an outcast from there, as had many of his friends, trapped as it were by the Ayatollah Khomeini's blind hatred of the Shah and those, even innocently connected to the Shah's government.  Those friends of his from High School were taken down to the shore of the Caspian Sea and shot.  My friend was sent photographs taken by a sister of one of the executed.  Some time later, my friend's infant son died and the day of the funeral, no one showed up to help him bury his little boy.  Many of the people he knew were afraid to come and be associated with him, not knowing where he was on the despised list. It was he, an old Ayatollah in Iowa for medical treatment who was an old friend of his father, and I.  I told the Holy Man that if it wasn't right for me to be there, I would leave.  He told me that Allah was merciful and would notice how I cared for my friend in his time of sorrow.  Later, the three of us had dinner and talked.  The old Ayatollah actually knew Khomeini from long ago.  He told me something I have always remembered.  The Prophet had amassed a great army, the greatest in Arabia.  He had killed many and was unstoppable.  Allah came to him and told him that his love must overcome his anger.  The killing was stopped.  My hope for the angry people of the world is for them to have the same epiphany that Mohammed had.  And that their love overcomes their anger. Inshallah.

PA, Los Angeles - I certainly would have come to your "Open Mosque Day" and I commend you in your efforts at both educating Americans about the Islamic faith, in addition bringing us together.

Should you ever have, or organize events as such in the future, please post it here.  I WILL come!! Thank you and PEACE!!

Actually, scott henderson nv, you are wrong.  7:3 means for every 7 there's 3 of something else, or 7 out of 10, or 70%.

Steve, I echo your sentiment. There will come a day when we can all live in peace and security and have respect for each other's beliefs, Insha Allah!

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