Okay, I'm confused.  I'm too tired from dealing with a different aspect of our government today-don't think I can sort this one out tonight.  Cheers!

PEACE!

"Well...he tells me...that's Cheney...tells me so much...to..uh..yeah, remember...too much darn... and y'know, well...he don't let me think much, y'know...so I don't hafta, Go Team! I remember that from Yale...but the Team...Scooter...Gonzica...Charro...they all want Pardons, y'know like Amnesty...I ain't Pardon International, y'know? Not gone do'it." -Dubya to Laura and the Twins.

[Photo Caption] "Dubya is seen giving the Prisoner Of War Eye Blink Code for the word 'Amnesty', during his his speech at the Republican Bosses of Undocumented Workers Convention, while giving the hand gesture for how much money they save."

Okay-I've been reading this blog for about a month now. Pam, Sue, Jamie, even Independent, seem to realize what I recently (finally) realized. The Dems are unable to stand for they (SHOULD) believe in and the Reps are so freakin' twisted that they haven't a way to buy a clue regarding what is REALLY going on. As I mentioned before, I have been reading this blog hoping for some sanity. Imagine my surprise (?) when I tried to pull up KO's take on the Cheney matter when I got a "Page Not Found" statement on my computer (republcan internets [?]). I have followed Keith Olberman since he worked for ESPN and have always enjoyed and his take on the MLB, if I agreed or not. But if MSNBC is unable to be real, regarding what is truly news right now, Keith Olberman is being wasted. I'm hoping my problem is not with my ISP. Forget that. I'm actually hoping my ISP is my problem. If Cheney has control of my computer,.....  

His not way with the English language grows every day.  Maybe we are wrong about him being too stupid to learn.  Maybe Unca Dick is just teaching him his words wrong so when he gets up in front of the room and stuns everyone with his malapropisms, Dick can steal while the crowd is distracted.  Just like an old-time sideshow grifter and pickpocket working the crowd while showing you a geek biting off chicken heads or a human blockhead hammering nails into his nose.  I couldn't tell from that photo, but was there sawdust and peanut shells on the floor?  Were the chickens nervous?  Was Chicken George using inappropriate tools to hunt nose goblins?  Is Unca Dick still a light touch after having his heart removed?  Inquiring minds want to know, Countdown.

The President misspoke?  Boy that's really uncharacteristic of him.  He's usually so, so, so... articulate.  

1.  "I don't know why you're talking about Sweden. They're the neutral one. They don't have an army." —during a Dec. 2002 Oval Office meeting with Rep. Tom Lantos, as reported by the New York Times


2.  "I promise you I will listen to what has been said here, even though I wasn't here."

3.  "We need an energy bill that encourages consumption."

4.  "Do you have blacks, too?" —to Brazilian President Fernando Cardoso, Washington, D.C., Nov. 8, 2001.

5.  "The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the nature of Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein, and his willingness to terrorize himself."

6. "I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to have a draft."

7.  "It is white." —after being asked by a child in Britain what the White House was like.

8.  "For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it."

9.   "I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace."

10.  (And this one is for Keith)  "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." —speaking underneath a "Mission Accomplished" banner aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, May 1, 2003


There were really 50 of the dumbest things ever said on this website I found, and we all know there are about 100 times that, but if you are interested in reading the other 40:  
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushdumbquotes2.htm

Hope this puts a smile on your faces today.  

Bush is a joke. He slips and calls this bill "amnesty", which it is. The right-wing noise machine pounces, because all they have is to whip the mindless hordes into a frenzy of fear. Something needs to be done about illegal immigration, but this bill is not the answer. Here's a wild, off the top of my head idea-we already have laws regarding illegal immigration and the hiring thereof. If these laws were enforced, and serious fines were applied to companies that hired illegals, the opprotunities would dissapear, along with the numbers of people willing to work for slave wages. Problem is, snow will fall in hell before this happens. Bush wants this bill so that his business buddies can continue to make obscene profits on the backs of those who cannot protest due to their illegal status. The "doing jobs Americans don't want to do" argument is merely a smokescreen to allow continued flouting of immigration law by certain businesses. All this bill will succeed in doing is to provide a permanent underclass to be exploited, while passing the bill for health care and other services to taxpayers.        

Lynn, you must be related to Todd of New orleans. There can't be two of the most idiotic people in the world living in the same city without being inbred. I think the amnesty bill is bad because it allows 12 million illegals plus their families into our country to steal benefits from our hard earned taxpayers. Also these illiterates would surely vote democrat because of the handouts offered by liberals. So I say NO to the amnesty bill. Maybe Lawyer Todd can explain his take on the immigration bill

OK am I missing something?  I re-read the original statement and the correction several times and they both say exactly the same thing word for word. How is that a correction?  I still don't know what he meant to say.

James in Richmond, how do you propose to deport anywhere from 12 to 20 MILLION people?  Logistically, it is just about impossible and would mean a whole new department would need to be created...call it the Deportation Department.  And that still wouldn't work.  Plus, they hardly all vote Democratic.  Not even Ann Coulter is moronic enough to make that assertion.  Do you have ANY facts at all?

James, Richmond (10:10) WTH? Are you saying that Lynn in NO is wrong for the reasons she doesn't support the bill?

Both of you think the bill is bad but you don't like her reasons for it?

Please explain.

Russell in Maryland (10:19) - don't feel bad. Bush still doesn't know what he meant to say either.


all - sure wish I could post a video here. I have one of a comic/impersonator that has Bush down pat and is very relevant here. (I don't know the comic's name.) This comic has Bush trying to clarify between "inside words" and "outside words" and how he gets confused sometimes about when he is supposed to use which. This guy also does a dead-on Bill Clinton. If any of you recognize the routine and know where this video is located on the web, please post. Thanks.

the reason that Bush and company want the amnesty bill passed is that allowing the illegal immigrants to stay allows the employers of the illegals to pay what they want to them, thereby driving the wages of all americans down which is what the pro business bush and gang want slave laborers at slave wages, while the so called smart corporate executives, yes the same ones who stole from us in the oil industry, and the thieves at enron and the rest of the bush campaign contributors. Al lets give credit to the smartest execs of them all the auto industry that has allowed american car manufacturing to dwindle to a shell of its former self in the name of executive pay bonuses. Lets remember it is the guy pttting on that fender that made the wrong decision in the corporate board room wasn't it?. Why is there no discussion in this alleged amensty dabate as to the EMPLOTERS of the illegals. THEY are actually violating the law, but NO thats NONE NADA ZIP enforcemant and prosecution against these employers. Now here's how you end the illegal problem. YOU JAIL THE EMPLOYERS. Lets just say 3-5 years mandatory sentencing for the hiring act and 1 year for each subsequent illegal you hire. Example: If you hire 100 illegals you will serve a mandatory 105 years in jail. and relinquish all revenues made while using illegal labor. BUT THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN WHILE BUSH THE CROOK AND CHENEY THE DYKE MAKER are in office.

My esteemed, confused fellow bloggers.  Welcome to BushWorld!  

Where nothing makes sense.

Where Bush and cronies repeatedly serves up fear and terror for breakfast, lunch and dinner in the months after 9/11 and then tell us to go shopping and on vacation (his corporate buddies were losing money, you know).

Where 9/11 is resurrected whenever there's an election, a vote, or a bill that serves Repugnikant interests, but where our national defense, security, and ability of first responders to communicate have not improved.

Where our most important national functions (security, disaster relief, emergency preparedness, etc.) are being privatized (nothing like big profits for your big campaign donors)

Where it's "not amnesty" to get supportfor a bill, but "yeah, its amnesty" when the "not amnesty" talking points aren't working.

Where you jump up and down, cry, send out your screaming talking heads, and take out expensive TV ads demanding "up and down votes" unless it's 239 pieces of legislation you don't want to ever see the light of day or even have a discussion.

Where disaster mitigation and rescue is only for white people and Repugnikant voting areas (or states where your brother is Governor)

Where you think it's OK for insurance companies to not cover any prpperty damage after the biggest national disaster in our country's history, but NOT OK to deny full payment and rebuilding of a vacation home owned by a political supporter (Trent Lott) which was damaged in the same disaster.

Where you decry people going to the courts for justice as "clogging up the courts" and "junk lawsuits" and hate lawyers, but lawyer-up and run to the courts yourselves for everything imaginable including getting yourself appointed President of the United States.

Where it's perfectly fine for a 5 year old to speak more intelligently than the President ("you're workin hard to put food on your family" and "too many OB-GYNs can no longer practice their .... (wait for it) .... LOVE for women" and "the internets" and "I'm the Commander Guy" ..... does he have superpowers we don't know about? .... "money sometimes trumps peace" and the list goes on.... insert Jon Stewart Bush hehehehe here lol.

Where Social Security will go broke unless Wall Street takes over (hmmmmmmmm.....Enron stock anyone?)

Where extensive Repugnikant campaign donations and cronyism are the only qualifications for all jobs.

Where taxes are to be paid by everyone except millionaires, billionaires and corporations.

Where coal is good, oil is good, pollution of our air and water are simply a by-product of our advanced civilization, but conservation, alternative energy and environmental protection are just crazy talk by kooks.

Where domination of our airways by NeoConJobs are fine until listeners rise up and bite you in the ass over the Immigration Bill.

I hope you have enjoyed your tour of BushWorld.  Come back soon - it will be gone in 18 months.

Sue, West Allis (11:10) Absolutely superb!

"Bush is a joke. He slips and calls this bill "amnesty", which it is. The right-wing noise machine pounces, because all they have is to whip the mindless hordes into a frenzy of fear. Something needs to be done about illegal immigration, but this bill is not the answer:  Lynn, New Orleans"

"Lynn, you must be related to Todd of New orleans. There can't be two of the most idiotic people in the world living in the same city without being inbred. I think the amnesty bill is bad because it allows 12 million illegals plus their families into our country to steal benefits from our hard earned taxpayers. Also these illiterates would surely vote democrat because of the handouts offered by liberals. So I say NO to the amnesty bill. James, Richmond"

James, do you actually read what is posted, or did you just ass-u-me things because of the very first line of the post.  Next time, before you put your foot in your mouth, you might want to read the ENTIRE post before responding.

P.S.  We've been going through this name calling stuff for long enough, from several of us. Why don't we just dispense with the immature aspects and have a real debate-without the name calling.  It really doesn't add anything to the mix, as I know first hand.  Tx!

PEACE!

James, Richmond - Maybe you'll merit a better response when you don't START with personal attacks.  Not even Scott was that stupid.  If you want to be a Neocon Contrarian, use Larry as your model.  You won't get eaten alive in here.  

Letting illegals that are already here attain citizenship without penalty as a reward for breaking our laws is AMNESTY by the very definition of the word.  Do no Neocons own a dictionary?  

F--

You actually showed worse than both Scott and the Bodine boy.  If you Neocon Puppets keep up this level of performance, the News Hole should start giving out awards.  We know how much you like to think you are special.  You know, like you are better than everyone else on the planet?  And, boy howdy, are you guys special.  Just not how you think.  

Now run along, little boy.  Go swim in the shallow end of the pool before you get hurt.  Does your mommy know you use the computer without supervision?  Nevermind.  I wouldn't want you to get into trouble for using the "I" word.  You know how sensitive she is to the family tree looking like a stump.

James, Richmond, is it possible for you to be less rude and offensive?  Mean people suck.

Can anyone tell me what it is they propose we do with 12 million illegals if some form of amnesty is not granted? Any ideas? How about you James - Richmond? People sure can take positions, amnesty, no amnesty, unfair to US citizens, etc., etc. , but just what the hell does anyone propose we do with 12 million illegals. Round them up? Yeah, right. Fine them? Yeah, like how do you collect if can round them up or find them? Think they will volunteer to pay a fine on their own? Imprison them? Where? Our prisons are full to the gills now. So what are the bright ideas as to what we do with these folks, James, anyone? There is no use or sense arguing or taking positions when there is only one solution to this dilemma, only one, because all others cannot possibly be implemented or carried out.

James, It is abundantly clear from your attack on my post that you didn't even bother to read it. If you had, you would notice that one of my points against the bill is the burden placed on taxpayers for healthcare and other services that the substandard wages illegals would receive do not cover. Your absurd idea to deport tens of millions of people is simply unworkable. The government cannot manage to get ice and water to NOLA for days when they had advance warning of a disaster, yet you seem to think that the government can suddenly and eficiently round up millions and deport them.

In addition your blanket assesment regarding how millions would vote is about as assinine as rude and ill-mannered as you are.

The bottom line is that the statutes are already in place to solve the problem, as other posters have already pointed out. It is certainly not fair to punish immigrants who have gone through the proper channels to gain citizenship by allowing others who are here illegally to jump ahead.

Purely for clarification purposes, Todd and I are not related, though it is comforting to know that there is at least one other person in this very red state who has enough brains to see past the lies and BS that has been spewing forth from DC.  

Sue WI - That was terrific.  Have you read "Bushworld" by Maureen Dowd?  Excellent read. And as for Bush's corporate buddies, "Why We Fight" is also an extraordinary documentary about the Military Industrial Complex (have your barf bag; some of what is brought up will make you nauseous).  

James, Richmond is really Ann Coulter. Now it makes sense.

This bill is nothing more than a shakedown of the illegals.  If they pay the money, they get citizenship, and that is the only 'consequence' they face for sneaking in.  

It is amnesty--for everyone who has the ability to pay, and you can count on the fact that all of the monies collected from this latest criminal endeavor of Bushco and our Congress, will promptly disappear into the black hole of our new infrastructure:  the ICE, DHS, TSA, TIA......

James, Richmond
Ya James you right the Bush/Chenney/ repubican party did a great job right? War in aganistan going great right? Iraqis gretted us with flowers like just like Chenney said right? we gained so much respect around the world everybody love, trust and respect us now right? Bush whant's this  amnesty billpast right? than it must be ok, after all he is your man right?
We cna trust the goverment no so much better under your party right? constitution what the heck who needs it right? So how has your republican party beeing working sofar for you?

tim&drea, warrenton MO – Hi!! It wasn't a problem with your IP; the site went down a few minutes after 10PM PDT.  It did the same the night before, but earlier I believe.  Perhaps they do maintenance work then?  Who knows, however, I'm glad you have come to the conclusion you have, as it was VERY HARD for me.

There is no benefit in denying, or blindly defending the indefensible.  We all must put "Country before Self" if we are to indeed EVER recover from the immeasurable damage done by this Administration.

I am a life-long and loyal democrat; however, I cannot ignore facts when they are so glaringly staring me in the face.  That, my friend, is a trait locked up by the Kool-Aide drinking neo cons of the Republican Party.

The latest press conferences from White House spokeswoman, Dana Perini, in attempting to defend, or make us “dense” people who LIKE the Constitution, understand Cheney’s argument that he is not a member of the “Executive Branch” to “we the stupid people” is one example.  She’s been stuttering, stammering and has looked like a cat on a hot tin roof.  For good reason, as what she’s attempting to defend is indefensible!!

WELCOME & PEACE!!

Todd - LOL!! Great analysis of the master of the English language!! I remember when his father was in office (nightmares to date) thinking we would never have a president who slaughtered the English language as he did.

WRONG!! Sadly, he was not sterile and we inherited his son, whose command of the English language almost makes his father's look "average"!!

PS: Todd, I believe someone on this thread is the CEO of today's circus, i.e. "Also these illiterates would surely vote democrat" - Yeah, ok, I believe these "illiterates" would even make George W. Bush's command of the English language sound worse than it already is!! Whatever one’s view is of this Immigration Bill, bigotry is never appropriate!!

If three Writers got together and wrote a screenplay, Poe,Dickens and Orwell, It would play like our Government. We need to exorcise all that are currently in "IT" and start fresh like the Constitution meant it to be.

Love the picture for this item. Reminds me of the Byzantine era paintings of saints with a sunburst halo. I'm certain that is how this man views himself.

Sorry - don't know what's going on here. My last post was supposed to be appended to "Dick's Move". Hmmmm. How did this happen?

Thank you C A for your most brilliant question posed.  As Senator Biden stated when addressing this question in the last debate, "there are times the president has to be practical" - he was NOT speaking of this president, but to the exact question you posed!!

You bring up a point that I have questioned from day one.  Just how are we to go about identifying, determining location, rounding up, and then deporting the 12+ million illegal immigrants in this country?

NO one has been able to answer that question.  But since James sounds like such a "swell guy", well-mannered and all, perhaps HE can answer your question!!

Notice how no one blames "Saint Ronald Reagan" for doing nothing to prevent "today" when he granted amnesty? Just one more sign that the neo cons can NEVER admit one of there’s, and especially "THE SAINT" made a rather large mistake!!

PEACE!!

James in Richmond, maybe you didn't read this, but less than 2 weeks ago, a Republican senator stated the Reps wanted these people made citizens because, in his words, "they tend to be pro-life and small business owners" and he thought they would naturally vote Republican.  This bill IS BAD for the USA, but it is not just the dems who hope to capitalize by increasing their voter blocs in the future...

Pam: The time to worry about immigration issues is over for this country as well as others. Unless the United States is willing to put up some kind of super futuristic wall that cannot be penetrated, climbed over, flown over, dug under, gone around, whatever, there is no stopping illegal immmigration, espcially from Mexico where the differences in economic conditions and access to jobs is so great nothing is going to stop these people. If someone thinks they are afraid of being arrrested, fined and/or rounded up and sent back to the Hotel Mexicana across the border that person has a brain about as big as that of Wylie Coyotes. And if you think you can catch all these people better rent and watch a few cartoons featuring Mr. US Coyote and the Mexican Roadrunner and see who can outrun and outwit who. The solution: give all those already in the States full amnesty but require they learn English. You walk in for a job you had better be able to complete a simple job application and answer a few questions in English. Keep Spanish as a second language kids can learn in school if they wish (and most will be wishing to do so in the future because of the diversity), and begin the process of negotiating with Mexico as to the best way of integrating Mexico into the United States as another region (we can worry about how many additional States this region could be divided into and added to the US later. Might as well, the Mexicans are Americans too. We here in the States have always erroneously claimed the right to that title when those living south of us are Americans too (South Americans). And we might as well start the process of integrating the two countries. Globalization is on us folks and it will not take a reverse course. Don't have to worry about Canada for the time being. They don't want to integrate with us just yet.  

Well folks, our government has managed to track down one person that came into this country illegally.  Granted, her husband lead them to her when he was seeking a way to have her here legally.

And, oh.by.the.way, now that he is currently MIA in Iraq, that would so be the most appropriate time to deport a person.  That my friends, is compassion.

I haven't been able to find anything else on this story since the other day, so if someone has an update, would you please post the link.

Illegals huh?  Mmmmmm, well most of you know that I live about 5 miles-as the crow flies-from the MX border here in San Diego.  If in fact anybody in any form of government at any level really wanted to 'find and deport' illegals from Mexico, then they need to go to companies in and around this and other border states-but they won't.

Instead punishing companies that help perpetuate fraudulant use of SSN's, and facing potential fines, they worry more about the $$$$$$$$$-the bottom line-and refuse, wait, aren't forced to comply with the laws.

As someone posted earlier-the laws are already in place, it's up to the government to enforce it.  Naw, let's just build a wall-because I'm sure THAT will work.

So yes, let's go after a woman whose husband- who I pray to God is still alive-is quite possibly making the ultimate sacrifice for this government and it's horror of war in Iraq.

LA - OMG there's a book?  I thought I invented something new.  Well GMTA (great minds think alike).  I'll have to get my hands on both the books you recommended - thanks.

Pam and others - we don't have an illegal alien problem in this country.  What we have is an illegal employement problem.  NONE of the provisions in the 1980s legislation are being enforced and certainly no one in this administration wants to deprive all of their corporate buddies of their slave labor.

If we would see employers going to jail because they employed illegal aliens, then there would not be jobs open to them in the future.  But BushCo doesn't want to see his pals behind bars.

It's pretty easy for employers to know if they've hired an undocumented worker.  They get notified by Social Security and the IRS as soon as taxes and Social Security payments are made under the information provided on that employee.  The name will not match the SSN or the SSN will be bogus.  Employers get a letter to submit corrected information.  Their failure to correct the information on file is an admission that they know, but don't care that their employee is undocumented.

Just enforce the existing laws.

Kick BUTT SUE!!!! My only worry is that it won't end in 18 months....

Hold on I thought they were discussing.... That if these people went into the military they would get automatic citizenship I think put forth by a Republican.. Most of the people of this country will not enlist to go fight The Bush Thug Bunch wars anymore... I agree with the person who said there are already laws in place, give a really stiff fine to the suckers who, rent, or hire them. Make those who hire them pay for a work visa for all of them or something.. once it hits the people making the money in their pockets, will it be worth them hiring them then? I still can't understand why they didn't arrest those who were illegals and protesting....the INS new they were gonna protest... easy few 100 or 1000 of them in each area I am sure.

Members of Congress seem to have forgotten what they really are - representatives of the people.  They are not there to vote their consciences; they are not there to vote what is advantageous to their party; they are not their to vote the whims of George Bush and/or Dick Cheny.  They are there to represent the vote of the majority of their constituency.  Most of the people in the U.S. want the war over.  That isn't the way the votes go.  Most of the people in the U.S. want illegal immigration stopped.  That isn't the way they votes go.  Most people want Dick Cheney out of the government.  That isn't the way the votes go.  Stop playing around with "non-binding votes."  They are meaningless.  If you don't intend to defund Dick Cheney's executive offic, don't say that you do, then not follow through.  Your job is to represent the people of the United States from your particular district, whether you are a representative or a senator.  You are not doing this.  Please, please remember who you are and for the well-being of whom you are supposed to be working - the people of America.

C A:  You do like Ike did.  Put them on a boats and leave them way down in southern Mexico.  If you want to look at the carrying capacities and transit times of modern ships to ships of Ike's vintage, you'll realize that moving 12 million people is not the logistics issue as much as rounding them up and staging them.  

And quite honestly, I don't care how it is done as long as it is done.  FedEx them for all I care.  I want them gone.  These people are illegal invaders, not legal immigrants.  They can come here legally or be forcefully repatriated and the costs charges to the Mexican Government. Ted Kennedy needs to be thankful and remember it is AMERICANS that have kept his car crashing drunk ass in office, not Mexicans.  He can go run for Senator from Chiapas if he wants to represent Mexican interests over American interests.

I think we will just be disagreeing on this issue, old bean.

Sue - I agree with you 1,000% regarding the employers.  They have been taking advantage of these workers for decades!! It's a disgrace!!

They want "cheap labor", they know these employees are "illegal" and therefore cannot complain about the deplorable working conditions, violations of OSHA standards, etc.  That's why is pushing is Bill.  He doesn't care about the human side; he cares about kissing the butts of the big corporate machine!!

Sorry, I missed that in my post!! Thank you for bringing it up, as you is so on target friend!!

Jamie - That was on reported in LA too, and I was as disgusted as you.  One of the soldiers was one of three originally kidnapped.  The poor soldier from Torrance has been the only one found.

Can you imagine deporting this woman, whose husband was abducted two months ago? These people are evil, pure evil!! She was married to a citizen and she was in the process of becoming legal!! It makes me so sad!!

I haven't heard much more either since the end of last week.

Compassion indeed - they are all pigs!!

I'll be the first to admit that when it comes the migration of Mexicans, I'm pretty much stuck in the middle.

I was born and raised in the most beautiful state of California-I have never NOT known Mexicans, whether they are 3rd generation Californians like myself, or if they are straight across the border without anything to call their own.  I grew up sort of speaking Spanish, and probably because it was just a natural thing to do.  My brother John's five kids are half Mexican.  Again, my former SIL is I think at least 3rd generation Californian, and I know more Spanish than she does.  

Now I live five miles from the border, and things are different than when I grew up.  I have cars, that I assume cross the border legally, clogging up the air that I breathe.  The same air that is in a state with some of the most stringent anti-pollution laws in the country!

I see the men outside or near a particular Home Depot here, and I see the women off loading from the buses here, heading off to do house work for my neighbors.  Are they legal?  I don't know.  Are the parents of a lot of the kids that go to my own childrens' school legal?  I don't know.

I honestly don't have an answer, nor a solution.  While deportation might be the answer people want, it is not possible.  Unfortunately, it will also be a huge detriment to many, many children that were born here and know nothing of Mexico.

I'm conflicted, and I really just don't know.

LOL Thanks Pam and all.  

My main point with enforcing the laws against employing undocumented workers is that without jobs, they'll leave.  And new ones won't come.  No need for busses, a flotilla of ships or any other transportation.  They found they're way here;  they'll find their way back home.

We DO need to reform our immigration.  That lottery system we have in place is a joke and unfair as well..

I respect your position on the immigration issue Todd. And I say this because rather than seeing an integration of these folks into our society what I am seeing is our society changing to accomondate them. I respect all people's cultures and language but it seems we (our kids), employers and others are being forced to learn Spanish rather than these folks having to learn English. I see it in the work place where companies are scrambling to hire Spanish speaking individuals so someone can communiate with the Mexican population being hired as employees. It is also having an effect on our schools. I understand in practice the official language of Miami (Dade County) now is Spanish (someone correct me if I am wrong). So I see other reasons for resistence to amnesty in addition to the fact they entered here illegally. But again, how do you round them up? And after you accomplish this and send them somewhere far off what do we do along the border to keep them from coming back. I have heard wall but they can go over a wall, around wall, under a wall and maybe even through a wall. They could even use the gulf and the pacific to do an end around. What is it we do to stop the flow?

When Bush attempts to speak on his own, I am always reminded of the 2004 debate in which many people speculated that he was wearing a transmitter than allowed his handlers to tell him what to say--and which explained the odd delays and weird outbursts observed in that debate.  After that performance, I was convinced that no thinking person could vote for him. If he really was wearing a transmitter, it was the equivalent of the lazy student's need for a "cheat sheet."  At that point, he had been PRESIDENT for four years. Did even his handlers think he was in over his head?  When have we ever heard him speak with precision and nuance about an important issue, or explain in some coherent way the history of that issue?  Either he can't do that because he doesn't know, or he truly believes facts and history and logical analysis are quaint, like the Geneva Conventions, and so it’s OK to do a kind of "pretend" version of extended thought.

Watching him stumble over even the simplest formulations of an idea or concept reminds me of reading the "essays" of college freshmen. They see writing as filling up a hole in the ground with whatever they have at hand, usually "opinions" and stock phrases and personal experiences treated as "evidence."  They've been taught to do a kind of "pseudo writing and thinking," which takes little time and no engagement, and they hate to give that up because the alternative means hard work:  close and careful reading, research, building a sense of what a range of others have said about the same question or problem, questioning their own ideas and assumptions, looking for and testing examples.  And more.  But the point of education (as opposed to getting a diploma) is for students to see the power of their own minds, the value of engaging with the minds of others, and to develop the tools necessary for that engagement.  And given the results of the Bush presidency, we can see the need to elect a man who opted for the education and not just the Ivy diploma.

Then, of course, there is that matter of how hard it is to keep track of the crap you shovel at the people--if what you believe in most fervently is your own best interest (in this case, votes for Republicans, money for business) it is hard to remember the cover stories for your actions.  

Jamie, Mark me down as confused, as well.  The refusal to maintain border security has created a giant mess.

Here's one thought:  If the debate on immigration was more than   a "show," we might be talking about getting control of the borders first, in order to prevent more illegal immigration.  Any decisions about what to do about those already here could be postponed until border security is established.  As part of securing the borders, we would need to have a national discussion about immigration in general.  The current situation (business's insatiable appetite for cheap labor combined with long waits for immigration) clearly isn't working.

Then the concern about 12 million MORE illegals would be off the table, and some rational discussion could commence about what to do about those who are here.  I don't see what is wrong with granting them permanent resident alien status that can be revoked if they break the law (including immigration law).  Both parties would like "a path to citizenship," assuming as they do that the new citizens (and their happy relatives and friends) would vote for their party. But if we mean what we say when we talk about the "rule of law," I just don't see the point in allowing people to pay a fine, wait X years, and you can be a citizen.  

What the people pushing the immigration bill want is to LOOK like they are doing something, while pandering to business and to a potential new voting bloc.  So: Fix the borders first.  Establish a policy for immigration.  Debate and decide on how to address the issue of immigration and fair labor practices.  Carry out that debate with reference to our history, which includes importing slave labor for agriculture and recruiting immigrants to work in mines, mills, and sweatshops for wages that enriched a few while leaving workers and families impoverished. Grant resident alien status to those here.  Wait five or ten years to see if the flow of illegals has stopped before putting citizenship on the table for discussion.

Well, well Bus lost again. It's not really suprising is anymore? Only this time his own party gave him his defied. This is priceless, this administation lost pretty much everthing right about now. Can this get any worse ( ya it can and I hope it will)

Linda, Pittsburgh (Sent Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:19 AM)

I agree completely.


All - Forget the issues. Yes, I mean that. Forget anything you think about the "immigration" issue.

Look at the BILL!!

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:S.1639:

This is BAD legislation.

When you (attempt) to read it, make certain that you have about 6 hours free to do so along with several blank legal pads and scores of freshly sharpened pencils.

Look where parts of the bill contradict other parts. Look at how much it would cost.
Look at how reasonable (or not) it would be to expect enforcement.

This is a BAD bill.

Don't let your hearts get in the way of thinking that this bill will solve any of the issues. It won't.

Great NYT article about this. In this one area, at least, elected officials are listening to constituents.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/28/washington/28dems.html?_r=1&th=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&emc=th&adxnnlx=1183051433-AcbttxqEvd5Hl02mYbg9Xg

Independent is right: This is Bad bill. They are rushing this thing and have not done enough study or brianstorming to come up with a proper immigration bill. Both sides despise eahc other (Dems and Republicans), and we have an administration no one trusts. During such times it is best not to pass any Bills as they will end up being rushed bills that are Bad bills.  

What should we say to those illegal immigrants? You will take care of my kids, prepare my food, enhance my lawn, build up my house, reduce the cost of living, help the economy grow, reduce the risk of stagnation, it’s to say, help the American people, the American companies, etc... you are good for whatever I need you, but do not think to have the chance to live in my country as an equal… so what is it? What it will follow…? Persecution?

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