http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspxClearly this terrible story at Virginia Tech will change how we lay out the show for tonight, any political news will be secondary - if we get to it at all.Watch live breaking coverage here...Update: NBC NEWS HAS LEARNED...The president will make a liveen-USCommunityServer 2.0 (Build: 60608.1)http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#151966Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:29:03 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:151966Bonnie, Madison, WisconsinTragically, although it may be arguable that "guns don't kill people," can anybody seriously deny that, in cases of random violence like this one, the availability of guns -- more than any other factor --determines the number and the identity of the victims? http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#151997Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:39:15 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:151997Jamie, Chula Vista, CAHorrible, horrible, horrible. What motivates a person to walk into a classroom and just kill a bunch of people? I'll never understand it. It makes me want to home school my kids, and then have them get their degrees online. I know it's one college campus in a sea of thousands, but it is still scary.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152025Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:47:20 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152025Lynn, New OrleansThis is just horrible! Obviously the story will be unfolding for a while to come, but the latest I am hearing is it was a student or at least student-aged, and he was looking for his girlfriend. It seems that this guy was far from stable, and it makes me wonder how easy it was for him to arm himself to the teeth and start shooting up the campus. My heart goes out to the families and friends of the victims today. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152030Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:48:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152030CatyZ, Manley Hot Springs, AlaskaWhat could cause someone to lose control so bad that they are willing to wreck such tragic destruction. How many people's lives will have been destroyed because one person could not come to terms with their own life. My thoughts and prayers are with all the people involved in this devastating incident. I think it's time that the NRA pay for campus security for our schools. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152073Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:08:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152073Jamie, Chula Vista, CAI didn't want to go with the availability of gun route, but I'm glad someone did. How many people need to be killed in the 'crossfire' of gun owners? Yeah, yeah, yeah, criminals usually steal their guns, but hey, if legal gunowners didn't have guns,then there would be none to steal. No arguments with me about the Second Amendment, as it was useful in the time it was written, but not necessary now. I've lived in other countries where guns are NOT legal-at least not outside of the military and law enforcement, and incidents like this rarely, if ever, happen.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152089Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:14:57 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152089Bonnie, Madison, WisconsinToo bad when I posted my earlier comment I didn't yet know that the gunman was looking for his girlfriend. Guns and domestic violence -- what a great recipe for senseless tragedy. All that may be missing here is the ubiquitous (and usually useless) restraining order. When is society going to wake up?http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152124Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:29:24 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152124Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, CaliforniaCatyZ, Manley Hot Springs, Alaska - Amen!! That post took courage my friend. I am so sick and tired of the NRA and their abuse of power!! Yes, the 2nd Amendment, which gives us the right to bear arms. Many argue, "It’s to protect my home and family" and the NRA abuses it’s' power in my opinion. An example of the "protect my home and family" excuse was never so arguably defeated several years ago in my home state of California. Residents were required by a new law to register guns previously not required under law. Two of my friends, who own a "cash of weapons" obviously not intended to "protect their home and families", promptly shipped all of these weapons to Nevada for storage, where the law did/does not apply. Can anyone please tell me, as these friends couldn't, "how can you protect your home and family in California with a gun located in Nevada?" Not only was their speech as incoherent as George W. Bush's, they couldn't answer the question. Some people, for whatever reason, feel a cash of weapons is perfectly acceptable, no matter how many statistics prove - over and over again - that tragedies such as this horrific one, are the result of their over zealous use of the 2nd Amendment. The NRA, in my opinion, is the guiltiest of them all. My prayers are with each and every family of the victims today.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152130Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:31:13 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152130JW, ChicagoIRS auditing the working classes is our own fault. We have allowed our public servants to create a reality in which they serve only the wealthy. How could any of us reasonably ask them to bite the hands that feed them - the wealthy corporate interests that fund their election campaigns? --- Also, the protection of the super-wealth-dynasties through the elimination of the death tax and increased focus on the taxation of the working poor and middle class is a cornerstone of the neocon domestic agenda. The communists focused on taxing the rural farmers in China and Russia. It’s only natural that the neocons focus their attack on the working poor here.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152172Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:44:13 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152172JJ, Rockville, MDI agree that easy availability of guns played a role in this tragedy. Unfortunately, it's probably easy to predict the NRA response, which will be something along the lines of "If people had more guns, someone on the campus would have been in a position to return fire and reduce the loss of life." Pathetic.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152192Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:53:48 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152192JW, ChicagoActually, (maybe predictably as a veteran) I support the 2nd Amendment. It’s meant to keep the government afraid of overstepping its bounds and running rampant against the populace. It might be the only thing keeping bush from invading our living rooms; thereby limiting him to only invading our private moments. This president’s actions have proven that he believes himself to be above mere human Law.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152215Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:03:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152215C A, Tuscaloosa, AlI'm am not posting here to get into an arguement about gun control or the NRA. I am posting to extend my deepest sympathies and prayers to those victims and the victims families of this tragedy. I am also extending my sympathies to the family of the person or persons who committed this terrible act. They too will suffer. Any death of a human being by the hands of another is a tragedy. And such tragedies have their origin in the darkness that envelopes and takes over those persons committing such acts no matter the means used to end another's life. This is a sad day, as are most days in this world when considering the loss of life initiated by those who live in darkness. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152220Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:06:40 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152220Lee Holmes Blaming the NRA in this senseless tragedy is an exercise in kneejerk stupidity.We will recall that the Malvo/Muhammed sniper shootings in the DC area were committed in a region of the nation that has among the most stringent gun-control laws in the nation.[Nor are these Euro nations where gun-control is 'working' immune.London and Edinburgh are seeing gun crimes skyrocket,and all of its inner-city gangs are packing better heat than the cops].Nor are the MS-13 and Surenos homies in South Central,South San Francisco,or the Central Valley members of the NRA.In LA alone,over 259 have died in the last year in a county which has stringent gun control laws.Quite sensibly,a federal court packed with Clinton-era appointees struck down DCs gun control laws citing the 2nds 'individual'vice 'collective'right to keep and bear arms.[this now-overturned law,in a city with one of the worst gun-murder rates in America today].The adage applies.Only criminals and cops[who are often the cause of overzealous gun usage],will and have,in the case of criminals,keep and use guns in the absence of private ownership by law-abiding Americans.Finally,the idea that shutting down legal avenues to guns will be the recipe for a Pax Americana in the area of gun murders do any good either.Not with a pourous border that no-one has the guts to deal with and not when handguns and ammo are being cheaply made and smuggled all along the Mexican border.Using the 'NRA'as a means to abort the constitutional right to bear arms is not the idea the Founders had in mind.Make no mistake.Allow the Democrats,who were able to win their majority only by the seizure of Red districts whose voters are otherwise gun-control opponants to style Columbine-like legislation,and they will go down crashing in defeat in 08.If these want an even greater litmus test than abortion,they will find it in guns.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152250Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:19:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152250Armed MadhouseAs long as driving an automobile and getting a public education is "a priveledge" and gun ownership is an ABSOLUTELY UNQUANTIFIED CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT and ONE OF THE MAIN PARTY PLATFORMS FOR SOCIAL RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVES OF ALL PARTIES - as long as we love our guns more than we love our children, this is just another day in America. Get used to it or move to Europe, Canada or someplace else where the citizens are more civilized. Now, let's get back to our regularly scheduled program of blaming video games, single mothers, welfare recipients, defense attorneys, rap music and MTV. We have to get busy, desperately pretending that HANDGUNS are IN NO WAY related to HANDGUN RELATED DEATHS. God Bless the NRAhttp://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152251Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:19:45 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152251Todd, New Orleans, LAHandguns and assault rifles have no design function but to kill humans. They should be distinguished when discussing firearms in general. Rifles and shotguns can kill people certainly, but they are in many ways utility tools analogous to a knife - they have legitimate non-human life taking functions. I would not own a farm without having a shotgun about. The majority of handguns and assault rifles are useless for hunting for a variety of reasons. While I think that a model where handguns/fully automatic weapons is strictly controlled is by far superior to the gun violence we subject ourselves to in this country (see Great Britain), I am afraid that horse has left the barn long ago. If you had done something after WWI, maybe, but now it is not socially and logistically practical. Just collecting them at this point would do noting but create a stronger market for underground black market weapons. Plus you have a ready made workforce in huge number of trained gunsmiths available that would suddenly be underemployed. See the war on drugs for a corollary. I hate to play Devil's Advocate . . . well, okay, I don't hate it, but Pam let me ask you and the others question. Given the current political climate, do you really think taking weapons from the citizenry and consolidating them under the control of the government and their sanctioned mercenaries is a good idea? Before Bush the Dimmer, I might have argued for more gun control. Now, I suspect the 2nd Amendment and the huge number of well armed citizens is somewhat serving to keep martial law at bay. You know Bush and Cheney are crazy enough to try that, probably under false pretenses, to avoid the prosecution that oh so certainly lies in their future. Just a thought.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152265Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:25:13 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152265Darrel Sisson, Edinboro, PA Neither do they (the citizens of your European countries, except for Switzerland, where gun ownership is mandatory) have the opportunity to defend themselves against their government (see Hitler, et al), or the deranged idiot with a knife, or the corrupt policeman (say it ain't so!), or the rapist/intruder bent on physical harm, or any of a myriad of other reasons to have a firearm. I am an NRA member, and this crime on the campus of VT is the most abominable thing I can think of. I do not own a "cash" of weapons, or a cache of weapons, just a few hunting guns. Have you any comments about the availability of vehicles to those who would use them as weapons, crashing into crowded markets or street-side bistros, as has happened? Would you blame AAA for those who did just that? The person(s) who did this are nothing but cowards and criminals of the worst sort. To judge many by the deranged actions of a few is a knee-jerk reaction, not well-thought, nor well-spoken. I'm sure a collective groan of despair has come from the law-abiding ranks of firearm owners, first for the deaths and injuries to so many innocent people in such a violent manner, and a second for the inevitable outcry to come for total gun control and registration, to restrict or eliminate the constitutionally-guaranteed right to bear arms. Maybe we should have eliminated all space exploration when the first astronauts died because of mistakes made during construction. I could go on and on, but this life is full of dangers and dangerous people who do incredibly stupid and dangerous things. It (and they) will not stop for any reason. I can envision the Orwellian day when people are imprisoned solely for their beliefs, because of actions such as those today, and the reactions of people enraged with grief and anger. It is not a pretty vision, and one I would not wish on any in this country, as it occurs in many other countries. My heart and soul go out to those families with loved ones who have died today. It is my solemn wish that any who had previous knowledge of the plans of this person (people?) are prosecuted to the fullest extent possible, having had the ability to thwart their plans in advance. My solemn sympathies....... http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152268Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:25:50 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152268Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, CaliforniaBonnie, Madison, Wisconsin – I love you too my friend. You are so correct about restraining orders, as they are not worth the “toilet paper” they are written on!! I know from first-hand experience!! In one of the most tragic events in my life, one of my close friends was murdered by her then recent ex-boyfriend shortly after we graduated from high school. She had just embarked on her college studies at the University of the Pacific, Stockton to pursue her goal of becoming a dentist. Her high school boyfriend and stellar football player was offered numerous athletic scholarships at some of the most prestigious “football” universities in the country. Upon graduation, my friend broke off their high school relationship. He promptly changed course with his college choice and both applied to and was accepted into the University of the Pacific, Stockton; a college not well-known for “football” stars. Under constant stalking and harassment, my friend’s father purchased her a gun to protect herself from him, as she was only seventeen and scared. Two weeks into her first semester at college, she was murdered by her ex-boyfriend with the very gun her father purchased for her. Her attempts to use the restraining order she obtained were useless in the months preceding her murder. Had police taken her pleas for assistance seriously prior both in San Francisco, and after in Stockton, I don’t believe her father would have ever purchased the gun that killed his daughter. I also believe had police done their job and enforced the restraining order, which they never did; the murdering ex-boyfriend would have been arrested for violating the restraining order. The University did nothing either. Through personal experience, I have come to the strong belief that retraining orders are viewed as a burden by law enforcement. Subsequently, this incompetence results in tragedies such as the senseless murder of my dear friend.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152276Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:27:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152276JJ, Rockville, MDLee, please understand, I don't oppose the 2nd amendment, and I don't think guns should be banned. However, I certainly think that we should look at licensing guns/ gun ownership / gun use along the lines of a "well-regulated militia". We license people to drive cars - and remove those licenses when people behave irresponsibly. Why not the same with guns? Why don't we have "gun-ed" in the same way we have "drivers-ed"? Why can't we require that people that purchase a gun have a certain level of training (I'm not sure you can buy a car w/out a drivers license, and I know you can't rent one)? Why can't we require that people that purchase guns carry liability insurance (high-powered/expensive cars, and high risk groups like teen boys have more expensive car insurance - why not for guns?)? I'm sure we could find middle ground if it wasn't automatically assumed that people who are pro-gun control want to "take away our guns". http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152284Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:30:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152284Morris Dees' Cat Compare American murder rates to those of other countries and you'll see that we'll fall statistically - and very consistantly - at the top, every single time. We loves us some guns - we hates us some people. We declare war on EVERYTHING from poverty to drugs to war - but we consider it wimpy and unmasculine to settle our disputes in court or by diplomacy. This IS YOUR AMERICA. Love it. Because you CAN'T leave it. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152338Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:51:14 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152338Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, CaliforniaDarrel Sisson, Edinboro, PA - As I stated, I fully support the Second Amendment; however the NRA has been irresponsible in supporting any type of reasonable and responsible gun control legislation. You appear to be a responsible gun owner, so perhaps you can tell me why many NRA members who state they have weapons to “protect their homes and families in California” shipped these very weapons to Nevada to avoid new registration laws several years ago. The NRA assisted these people with mass mailings of literature advising how and where to ship their “weapons used to protect their families and homes”. You appear reasonable, so perhaps you can answer the question that I have posed to numerous NRA members over the course of six years. To date, not one has been able to answer this very simple question. Thank you, as I can’t understand it. In addition I don’t understand why a cache of weapons is required to protect one home.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152360Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:58:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152360CatyZ, Manley Hot Springs, AlaskaI guess I need to clear up a few things. 1) I am a gun owner I own several, shotgun, rifels and pistols. 2) I live in rural Alaska and do feed my self with those guns. 3) I have had run-ins with bears (even ones going to my outhouse) but only one time in 15 years have fired a weapon for noise to scare the animal. My problem is with automatic and semi automatic guns. They have no use or point in hunting. The thing that gets me about the NRA is that they have so much money and spend so much money "protecting" americans rights to own these types of weapons. That they need to be the ones now to provide protection from people with the right to own these weapons to the people who may end up being massacured in such a horrible incident as this.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152380Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:04:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152380Spin Doctor MengeleLook, we hung the sexist/racist idiotic comments of a 900 year old country & western cowboy fossil around the necks of rap music artists like Snoop Dog, so we can EASILY blame them for this too! Just don't blame white people, rich people, corporations, churches, conservatives or guns. *WHATEVER you do, absolutely DO NOT blame the guns! If someone starts to talk about how easy it is for a completely insane person wearing body parts as a hat to get an arsenal of handguns & asault weapons, with no questions asked, start showing some more of that Anna Nicole Smith "breaking news" footage. THAT'LL make all the thinking people surrender with their hands up. Hey, has anybody seen Micheal Jackson? Where was HE when this took place. Doesn't OJ Simpson own a gun? Cable-Satellite TV Spin works on us typical American white people - just like the Jedi Mind Trick worked on the Empire's Storm-Troopers. "These aren't the droids you're looking for, move along." (Repeat as Needed)http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152404Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:09:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152404Lynn, New OrleansFor any who may suggest that having students armed on college campuses is a good thing, this scenario comes to mind: drunken frat boys, with guns and extra clips of ammo, re-enacting the OK Corral on the campus quad because someone looked at someone else's girlfriend the wrong way, or took the last beer out of the communal refridgerator. I don't think we can put the genie back in the bottle in regards to the proliferation of guns in America, but I do not think arming students is a good idea either.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152424Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:16:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152424scott henderson nvWe fall at the top in murder rates? How does one define the top? I was wondering how long it would take the distortionists to politicize this senseless act. Somehow before this is over it will be Bush's fault. By the way, that University campus was obviously a gun free zone, which brings us to the fact that the only one with a gun was the nutcase. If others had guns they could have defended themselves.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152434Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:19:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152434Lee Holmes Interestingly enough,it is the NRA,that is the most responsible gun organization in America when it comes to training and gun education.Misuse of guns carries with it the predictable penalties,including,the banning of further ownership of guns as an ex-felon.Guns have more laws at the state and federal level than any other product,thing,or behavior,yet they do not prevent these kinds of tragedies from occurring.Lessening gun ownership will not help either.This is not Canada,which has fewer people than a single American state,nor is it England[which is seeing a rise in gun violence regardless],which does not share a gigantic border with a gun-producing neighbor.We should not try to gull ourselves into believing that we can be anything like these other nations when it comes to guns.Many states require licencing in order to purchase guns.Others require that a safety course[ironically for the gun-control advocates,usually run by the NRA],be completed before licence is issued before you can even get a gun.The law-abiding will take this route.These others will plainly not.[and as we saw in gun sweeps in DC and NYC,these measures did exactly zero good in cutting down black market weapons arriving hourly from Asian,European,and South American ports].One thing that is debatable however.A well-trained person with a concealed-carry permit at the right location would have stopped this guy in his tracks.Without such protections,this shooter was as a wolf among sheep.We will expect the rise of plainclothes security in our nations colleges as a result of this shooting and the gun debate to rage on.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152443Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:22:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152443C A, Tuscaloosa, ALThis debate on gun control and the NRA is why it is so difficult to govern people and why whoever makes the attempt better be very wise, competent and a good listener. A person's beliefs and principles are crafted by their individual experiences. And many of these experiences tend to validate for each of us that which others should believe as well. But we are a collective, with experiences in our backgrounds that differ. Thererfore, we make up a society with profound differences in our belief system and principles. One person can only assume that their belief is correct based on their own experiences, but they should be careful not to assume that others have been shaped by the same experiences. If gun control is considered a moral issue which I suppose it might be, it is not difficult to understand why those on the right would tend to hold the individual accountable for the inappropriate use of a gun, where those on the left would place a larger emphasis on the tool used to kill another human being. But if someone (right, middle or left) is able to provide a "factual conclusion" as to what came first, the chicken or the egg, then I suppose they just may be able to validate to a greater extent their arguement on the issue of gun control with the rest of us. There is one part of this I don't believe anyone can argue about. Child death due to accidental gun discharge because a parent was not a responsible and safe gun owner has no defense against those opposed to widespread ownership of these weapons. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152465Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:32:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152465Larry Charleston, SCPammie, nice try. I bet you talk to NRA members regularly. Perhaps you need to look at personal responsibility. The dems for years have taken responsibility for nothing. No consequences for bad behavior, light sentences for multible offence felonies, have as many babies as you would like cause the government will take care of you. Legalize drugs, civil disobedience , and the list goes on and on. The single answer is this person comitted a horrible crime and he is responsible. The NRA didn't make him do it or even suggest he do it. They did not make it easier for him to obtain guns. Bad people usually do bad things. It will probably come out that this person should have been locked up many times before. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152468Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:33:11 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152468Scott in South TexasYears ago, a pathetic crazy man shot and killed a whole lot of people he didn't know at Luby's in Waco, TX. Shortly thereafter, a young woman who survived the shootings began lobbying for a law permitting the carrying of concealed handguns. Her presentation to the legislature was to dress up in coveralls and walk up and down the rows of legislators' desks shooting them at random with an imaginary gun. She ran for state legislator and won, and now we have a concealed carry law, but we rarely ever hear of it preventing any crimes or protecting the innocent. I am constantly amazed by the people I know who somehow get off to carrying a handgun. Whether it be no gun control, or total gun control, incredible tragedies like this one will just keep happening.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152501Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:45:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152501Darrel In Edinboro, PA To Pam Bignardi in California: I have read many of your postings over time, on many diferent sites, and you seem, also, to be a reasonable person, so I will answer your question. Those folks shipped their weapons out-of-state because the very first step on the path to confiscation of firearms is the registration of such firearms. The next step after that is making the transfer of any firearm from one person to another, or the inability of the registered owner to produce that firearm on demand by the "authorities", an illegality, punishable by prison time, and who knows what else. The firearms owners in this country have learned their history lessons well, and can point to the many countries of this world where such actions by the government have produced populations subject to the whims and vagaries of tyrants and despotic rulers, usually resulting in great despair and social agony. Several of the above commentaries have touched on the edges of this subject. Questions as to quantity have many possible answers, the most obvious being that, without the ability to carry a firearm with you wherever you go, some feel it necessary to have several in various places, quickly accessible. It is difficult to access protection when lying under a car, for example. Myself, I do not do things like this, but know some who do. I can not blame them, having dealt with some of the general populace who feel that "what's mine is theirs" is the correct mentality, and the hell with everyone else or the laws. There was a place I used to work where several people carried concealed weapons (they were licensed to do so) to work (against work rules), because of the extremely strained work environment coupled with several employees whose mental stability was in question by both management and labor. These ARE tough questions, and the answers can only be made by the person and the situation. I sent my guns out of the house when my ex-wife moved out. I was being a Boy Scout, and was preparing for any move she might have made, including (falsely) accusing me of violence towards her, which would have resulted in immediate (and probably permanent) confiscation of them. As with most things in life, there are no easy answers. Every situation is different, and everyone acts, and reacts, differently to that same situation. I have a great respect for the government of this country, but I have very little respect for those in office at this moment. Several postings above have broached this subject, too. Many have said that, without the Second Amendment, none of the others would exist. I firmly believe that, and do not ever want to experience life in this country without it. Try to imagine government-controlled news of any sort, publishings of any kind, or the "free speech" we enjoy, gone without the ability of the populace to enforce those rights guaranteed to us by those oh-so-intelligent men who came before us. Hope this gives you a little insight..... http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152511Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:50:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152511An Atheist Beholds the Holy Prepuce!Scott - "Distortionist"? Oh, I see that means = "realist". (Just to make the terms & definitions *leap-of-faith* crystal-clear, from the indiginous right-wing mo0nbattery Bushpublican Language - translated into rational logical English. Now, watch as they argue with the purely numerical data, as if 1+1 DOESN'T equal 2 in Bush-World. These Freeper dorks CrAcK Me tHe F uP! The POINT-to-end-all-counterpoints: If you seriously believe that "smaller government", plus "more religion" times "more guns" = "safer and better lives for the citizens", then you belong in Baghdad, Iraq or Kabul, Afghanistan. See you when you get back. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152516Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:51:50 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152516Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, CaliforniaTodd, New Orleans, LA - As usual, your post is brilliant. To answer your question based on your scenario, "Given the current political climate, do you really think taking weapons from the citizenry and consolidating them under the control of the government and their sanctioned mercenaries is a good idea? Before Bush the Dimmer, I might have argued for more gun control." - I do not believe people should be stripped of CERTAIN weapons as for then, "I" would be advocating violating the Constitution just as this Administration has in its use of it in lieu of toilet paper. I strongly agree with your statement, "Handguns and assault rifles have no design function but to kill humans". I also do not believe, based on people I know that own guns that shipped them to Nevada as stated above, that these people own guns to "protect their homes and families". They use this crap as an excuse, and in California, I call them on it. The NRA spent millions in California directing people where and how to ship their "weapons of protection" to Nevada. I don't put anything above Bush/Cheney, to include martial law as you stated. However, I don't believe this very possible scenario should stop us from doing everything possible to push for responsible gun control legislation. Just last week, another 15-month old baby was murdered in Los Angeles by a handgun, registered and legally owned by the shooter - mad at his "girlfriend". When human life is at risk, I must set aside your Bush/Cheney scenario and continue to push for gun control legislation and stop the NRA’s encouragement and assistance in circumventing these laws. Thank you Todd, as I truly enjoy reading your posts.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152579Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:12:35 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152579Bonnie, Madison, WisconsinPam -- I am so sorry to hear about your friend. Your story says it all and says it best. My heartfelt sympathies. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152581Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:12:49 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152581StevieExcuse my cynisim. But I don't for one minute believe that the NRA cares anything about protecting home and family, the only thing they are interested in is to keep those dollars rolling in. It is all about money, money, money!http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152594Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:17:11 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152594scott henderson nv"Distortionist"? Oh, I see that means = "realist". I think you're starting to get it. What you see as real is in fact a distortion. Your clear hatred of Bush distorts your world view, just as this nutcase I'm sure had a distorted world view due to hatred. To be clear, I think Bush and his administration has made some horrible miscalculations with respect to Iraq. But these miscalculations were not lies, they were errors as humans are prone to make. The fact that you call yourself an atheist tells me you are far to certain about things you cannot be certain about. As Mark Twain said, "it aint what you don't know that causes the most harm, it's what you do know that just aint true" http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152619Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:23:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152619Mary Ellen, Chicago, ILMy first reaction to today's shooting was shock; the second was anger. When are we as a rational nation going to stop being bullied by the NRA? I would love for some politician to step up and say, "Enough!" Instead, they are tripping over themselves to prove what great hunters they are (at least the men are). I am always puzzled by the Second Amendment supporters who seem to fantasize that they need their guns to protect themselves from some evil empire (sounds a lot like a video game or a story line on "24"). If that is the reality, then we truly are in bad shape. I hope someday we can focus on the insidious nature of guns as much as we do on other harmful aspects of our society. My heart goes out to all the victims' families!http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152621Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:24:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152621Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, CaliforniaDarrel In Edinboro, PA - Thank you for taking the time with such a thorough response. While I understand what you are saying for obvious reasons, I don't understand your statement, "Questions as to quantity have many possible answers, the most obvious being that, without the ability to carry a firearm with you wherever you go, some feel it necessary to have several in various places, quickly accessible. It is difficult to access protection when lying under a car, for example." I believe one is required to have a license to carry weapons wherever they like, in addition to a concealed weapons license. My sister is a police sergeant, and I'll confirm this with her; however, I'm pretty sure I'm right. Also, you didn't really address my questions as to "how can one protect their home and family in California when their weapons are in Nevada?" Also, why would the NRA spend millions of dollars sending mass mailings to NRA member in California clearly instructing them how to circumvent a law? A law is a law Darrel, and if someone who owns a gun is more than willing to break and/or circumvent a law relating to weapons they own, I believe these people should be the focus of those I consider "not responsible gun owners". Your thoughts??http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152730Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:10:40 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152730K, Phoenix, AZI hold the same sentiment as C A above. I “extend my deepest sympathies and prayers to those victims and the victims families of this tragedy.” As students of history, our founding fathers understood that tyranny is created by a small group holding the majority captive by removing their weapons – free speech that is protected by an armed citizenry. The founders created the 1st and 2nd amendments to prevent tyranny from gaining a foothold in this new country. Every step the government takes to remove our “weapons” should be fought and all should remember Thomas Jefferson’s words, "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152745Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:18:32 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152745Mitchell Mullens Roanoke VAI look at this tragedy and I can't help but think about gun control. Now,let me start by saying I'm not one of these 'all or nothing' people, I can see gun cotrol that does not violate the 2nd amendment. Personlly I can't see the value of semi automatic or automatic weapons in anything but killing people. That said, as I listed to the reports of what happened just down the road from me, I can't help but think that we should take the 2nd amendment as the framers saw it... ...black powder muzzle loaders only.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152828Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:58:20 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152828Amy C., NCAs a college student, I can't imagine what a living nightmare it would be to be trapped in one of my classrooms by a psycho and shot at, or to have my friends in the same situation. I'm turned off to the whole blame game for the time being; I understand and share in the outrage, but it's too early and it does nothing to point fingers, especially when all the facts have yet to be pieced together. As dopey as it might sound, right now I'd rather pause and appreciate my health and the relationships I have instead. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152836Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:06:41 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:1528361 Fish, 2 Fish, Red Fish, BushFishScott, I think the man said "SEE YOU WHEN YOU GET BACK". So peel that made-in-Korea "I worship Jesus W. Bush" sticker off the back of your 1977 AMC Gremlin, enlist and put that sucker on the back bumper of your Humvee. Godspeed, Captain Scotty. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152860Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:19:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152860Bonnie, Madison, WisconsinI think we should all thank all the callers today who took advantage of one more -- albeit tragic -- opportunity to remind us that guns are not connected to gun crime. Can we ever get enough of that logic, really? For all the myriad explanations that these apologists offer for gun-related violence, one thing remains crystal clear -- the single common denominator in all gun crime is ... guns.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152864Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:22:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152864Capturing All the Words of the Far-Right - CLICK HERELOL, now we're blaming THE DEMS?! Good grief, WAKE-UP & LISTEN TO YOURSELVES, will you?! All you Bushovites, Fundies & other subspecies of crazy people, you're MAD, MAD I SAY!!! Uhh... You DO KNOW that the Internet is FOREVER, right? That these words will be here to reference your seemingly infinite levels of brainwashitude - even 100 years from now. ...you ARE aware of this, right? Just say "no thank you" & slowly walk away from the Kool Aid kettle. You're seriously embarrassing yourselves. The things that some of you say are so idiotic that I'm seriously beginning to feel embarrassed FOR YOU. Fellow thinkers and "reality-based" community: (Those who don't question what the word "top" means) Before you hire anyone to make your french fries, sweep your floors - before you MARRY somebody, make sure that they were NEVER a Bush-whacked-SiLLy-a$s right-winger! Go here and look for their email addresses, usernames, etc. amongst the ranks foi the free-range chickenhawk fundamentalist FReeperz cult ~> http://www.archive.org/index.php http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152934Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:08:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152934LVI'm an alumnus of Virginia Tech, and I can tell you that the leadership there was always the most competent group of people I've ever done business with. This isn't Katrina, led by some bumbling, unqualified bunch of idiots. I'm not saying no mistakes were made, but the finger pointing is driving me insane. There isn't nearly enough information to judge on at this point, and even when more becomes certain, I want to know how a public institution, especially a large one, could possibly guarantee the safety of its students and employees? I have faith that the school's administration acted in good faith based on the knowledge that they possessed, and I hope that people will not leap to the conclusion that VT administration is equivalent to the Presidential administration.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152947Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:17:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:1529474 Star General Knowledge - Click Here"If we can blame guns for shootings, then I can blame spellin' errors on my pencil." Oh goody! Some real, down-home, good ol' boy, southern-fried intelligence. OK, once a member of YOUR family gets gunned down in cold-blood, you can equate that tragedy to a spelling error - if you wish to do so. On the important 'Guns vs. Pencils' debate: Well, I'd say that pencils - and their technological progenitors - have given us the works of Shakespeare, the music of Mozart, the sketches of Leonardo Davinci, the words of Walt Whitman, Mark Twain and W.E.B. Dubois, and the honestly phrased written word has marked the passage of time and events by giants such as Howard Zinn and Angie Debo. Guns? The 2-time Medal of Honor winner and genuine American Hero, Marine Corp General Smedley Darlington Butler once said "War is a racket." Come to think of it, he wrote it too. ...with a pencil. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152952Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:21:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152952Jamie, Chula Vista, CALarry, Charleston, SC "have as many babies as you would like cause the government will take care of you" Good grief Larry, the Democrats can't win for losing. In case you've lived under a rock for you're whole life, you'd see that a good majority of Democrats (at least politians) are pro-choice. So, if we are pro-choice folks fighting against anti-abortionists, why is it so wrong to want to take care of the babies that are born to people that really can't afford them? Are you one of those that will do anything to protect an unborn child yet nothing for them once they are born? I don't blame the Dems for this or Republicans-I blame people that continue to promote the use of and ownership of guns. Attack me, I don't care. I served my country for 20 years and I know the oath I took all three times, however, that doesn't mean that everything that was written or amended in our Constitution is realistic now. We have a police, we have a military, and unless you or anyone else plans on settling some new land in this country, your gun(s) is/are unnecessary. Unfortunately we can't turn back the hand of time, and I only pray that my children aren't caught in the crossfire of some wonderful citizen that feels he or she has the right to carry a gun. No, a gun won't fire itself, but I find it difficult to imagine that 32 people would be killed by one monster with a knife. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152958Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:24:57 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152958Mitchell Mullens, Roanoke, VAAgreed LV- I just cringed as I watched as the campus olice chief put up with an interrogation by one 'newsman'. It's like these idiots would like nothing better than to be able to write that this was all som big scandal, perhaps they dream that the president and the campus police were in on the plot?http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#152972Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:33:14 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:152972Father Coughlin's Cough SyrupWow, Scott. You've even stunned ME! So, to sum-up your points, somewhere in YOUR MIND the Bushies and their FaItH-Ba$eD policies are honest - if not 100% RIGHT - and we reality-based people are deluded by our own aversion to having the Bill of Rights edited down to JUST TWO very qualified "sometimes" rights, having the US Constitution declared "just a god-d@mned piece of paper" and the Geneva Convention declared "quaint and out-dated"? What kind of a snake-handling church do you attend there in South By-God Caro-fricken-lina? http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#153018Tue, 17 Apr 2007 01:03:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:153018Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California1 Fish, 2 Fish, Red Fish, BushFish - Well stated!!Scott never makes sense; and again, he's a fourteen-year-old who either a.) Never attends school or b.) Learns such idiotic views in his home. He still believes Iraq had something to do with 9/11, not the 19 hijackers trained in terror camps in Afghanistan and predominantly from Saudi Arabia; the “war on terror” IS the "war in Iraq", not the "invasion of Iraq”; every word George W. Bush says is "Gospel truth", thus your "Jesus W. Bush” comment is ever so fitting; the liberals and democrats are to blame for every bad thing in the world, though this country was still respected under President Clinton; Dick Cheney has never lied to us, although the "Iraq war would be paid with Iraqi oil revenue" has never come to fruition; the six-month-max time period we were given for the "war" is now in it's fifth year; Halliburton, formerly run by Dick Cheney and awarded billions of dollars in no-bid contracts, continues to steal and/or not held accountable for billions of taxpayer dollars; Cheney stated the "insurgency is in it's final throws" how long ago, yet the insurgency has gotten stronger by the day; democrats like Senator Ted Kennedy was correct from day one about the Iraq "Invasion"; the nightmare in Iraq is now the democrats fault because criminal and murderer George W. Bush refuses to be held accountable via benchmarks and timelines, although he has preached them for more than four years until he is blue in the face via elections, the Iraqi Constitution, etc.; and it goes on and on. Scott, "Sir Lawrence of Arabia/Charleston SC" and Lee Holmes will never see the truth for what it is. Like Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and Rush they will, like this Administration, continue to spout lies with ease. No, this "Hell" the Iraqis and our brave men and women are living is the fault of irresponsible, incompetent and criminally negligent persons. Beginning with “Commander-In-Chief George W. Bush, to Dick Cheney to Donald Rumsfeld, this group is solely responsible for the destruction of an entire nation, mass murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people, our country’s complete loss of credibility worldwide, in addition to numerous criminal acts. They must be held accountable, and in some way transported to The Hague and tried for International War Crimes, crimes against humanity and Geneva Convention violations. Anyone who believes one word of what anyone from this Administration spews is incapable of admitting the sky is blue!! I’m sick and tired of hearing nonsense and idiotic remarks that the vast majority of Americans know full well are bold-faced lies!!http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#153053Tue, 17 Apr 2007 01:23:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:153053Don Oubre, Paulina, LouisianaScott Henderson NV: You can not be serious, you believe that college student's, if they had right's to carry gun's on campus & in classroom's this would not happen, or be in some way less violent! Don't worry i will in know way blame Bush for this, it's the extreme on your side the aisle that play's the blame game when all else fails. I in know way want to divert attention away from the administration's scandles they are beeing investigated for already, good try though! I believe in the right to bare arm's, i just don't have the need to bare arm's, just knowing i have the right has been good enough for me right now.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#153122Tue, 17 Apr 2007 02:10:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:153122Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California1 Fish, 2 Fish, Red Fish, BushFish – What amazes me are those who still believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11, not the 19 hijackers trained in terror camps in Afghanistan and predominantly from Saudi Arabia; the “war on terror” IS the "war in Iraq", not the "invasion of Iraq”; every word George W. Bush says is "Gospel truth", thus your "Jesus W. Bush” comment is ever so fitting; the liberals and democrats are to blame for every bad thing in the world, though this country was still respected under President Clinton; Dick Cheney has never lied to us, although the "Iraq war would be paid with Iraqi oil revenue" has never come to fruition; the six-month-max time period we were given for the "war" is now in it's fifth year; Halliburton, formerly run by Dick Cheney and awarded billions of dollars in no-bid contracts, continues to steal and/or not held accountable for billions of taxpayer dollars; Cheney stated the "insurgency is in it's final throws" how long ago, yet the insurgency has gotten stronger by the day; democrats like Senator Ted Kennedy was correct from day one about the Iraq "Invasion"; the nightmare in Iraq is now the democrats fault because criminal and murderer George W. Bush refuses to be held accountable via benchmarks and timelines, although he has preached them for more than four years until he is blue in the face via elections, the Iraqi Constitution, etc.; and it goes on and on. Like Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and Rush some people will continue to spout the lies of this Administration with ease. No, this "Hell" the Iraqis and our brave men and women are living is the fault of irresponsible, incompetent and criminally negligent persons. Beginning with “Commander-In-Chief George W. Bush, to Dick Cheney to Donald Rumsfeld, this group is solely responsible for the destruction of an entire nation, mass murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people, our country’s complete loss of credibility worldwide, in addition to numerous criminal acts. They must be held accountable, and in some way transported to The Hague and tried for International War Crimes, crimes against humanity and Geneva Convention violations. Anyone who believes one word of what anyone from this Administration spews is incapable of admitting the sky is blue!! I’m sick and tired of hearing nonsense and idiotic remarks that the vast majority of Americans know full well are bold-faced lies!!http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#153134Tue, 17 Apr 2007 02:19:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:153134Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, CaliforniaCapturing All the Words of the Far-Right - Great post!! As I posted on another thread, there are "those" who still believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11, not the 19 hijackers trained in terror camps in Afghanistan and predominantly from Saudi Arabia; the “war on terror” IS the "war in Iraq", not the "invasion of Iraq”; every word George W. Bush says is "Gospel truth", thus the above "Jesus W. Bush” comment is ever so fitting; the liberals and democrats are to blame for every bad thing in the world, though this country was still respected under President Clinton; Dick Cheney has never lied to us, although the "Iraq war would be paid with Iraqi oil revenue" has never come to fruition; the six-month-max time period we were given for the "war" is now in it's fifth year; Halliburton, formerly run by Dick Cheney and awarded billions of dollars in no-bid contracts, continues to steal and/or not held accountable for billions of taxpayer dollars; Cheney stated the "insurgency is in it's final throws" how long ago, yet the insurgency has gotten stronger by the day; democrats like Senator Ted Kennedy was correct from day one about the Iraq "Invasion"; the nightmare in Iraq is now the democrats fault because criminal and murderer George W. Bush refuses to be held accountable via benchmarks and timelines, although he has preached them for more than four years until he is blue in the face via elections, the Iraqi Constitution, etc.; and it goes on and on. Scott, "Sir Lawrence of Arabia/Charleston SC" and Lee Holmes will never see the truth for what it is. Like Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and Rush they will, like this Administration, continue to spout lies with ease. No, this "Hell" the Iraqis and our brave men and women are living is the fault of irresponsible, incompetent and criminally negligent persons. Beginning with “Commander-In-Chief George W. Bush, to Dick Cheney to Donald Rumsfeld, this group is solely responsible for the destruction of an entire nation, mass murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people, our country’s complete loss of credibility worldwide, in addition to numerous criminal acts. They must be held accountable, and in some way transported to The Hague and tried for International War Crimes, crimes against humanity and Geneva Convention violations. Anyone who believes one word of what anyone from this Administration spews is incapable of admitting the sky is blue!! I’m sick and tired of hearing nonsense and idiotic remarks that the vast majority of Americans know full well are bold-faced lies!! http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#153170Tue, 17 Apr 2007 02:50:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:153170Stevie Salt Lake UtahPam. I cannot recall how many times I have read or heard on the news the same story you shared with all of us today.The names,ages and circumstance may differ but it all ends with deep pain for us all. Back in the 1980s a wonderful old couple were tortured and murdered in their own home with the very guns they owned. Understand this couple were not militants, just a couple who liked to hunt, fish and go to the various sporting events that we enjoy here in Utah Today we still grieve the loss of this couple as I am sure you still grieve the loss of your friend. I think we should get more agressive when it comes to intervention. By that I mean, lets start reading the signals and act. Lets consider any threat of violence a promise not just a threat.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#153289Tue, 17 Apr 2007 03:54:24 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:153289P.T.And Bush still pays lip-service to the NRA by saying "America has the right to bear arms." Sadly this is the only group still supporting this s--t-for-brains.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#153613Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:57:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:153613Darrel In Edinboro, PA Pam Bignardi: It may be the law in California that requires any person carrying a firearm to have a license, but one must define the distinction between "carrying a weapon" and "carrying a concealed weapon". It is not against the law, in PA and many other states, to carry a firearm in plain view and not have a "permit to carry a concealed weapon". The key word here is "concealed", and a weapon carried in plain sight is not concealed. One usually reads about a "permit to carry", which is incorrect, and is used because most reporters are too lazy to properly complete the phrase with "a concealed weapon". It seems like splitting hairs, but it is not. I do have to admit it is frowned upon by society in general, and by law enforcement in particular, but carrying a weapon in plain sight is not against the law, in most states. It is not uncommon in the area where I live to see folks walking down the street carrying a rifle or shotgun during the hunting seasons, and I myself have done so. We have been raised to respect the power of firearms, and the responsibility that we have earned from years of education and practice among our elders and peers, and we have been raised to reject and report those individuals who do not follow the strict code of ethics necessary when dealing with firearms. You are right about your friends not having their weapons available to protect their lives and homes after they shipped them out-of-state. But, those firearms are still their firearms, and cannot be confiscated by officials in California, since the firearms are not physically in California. Many of the firearms laws in place in California seem, to me, to be tilted in favor of those who would commit crimes, knowing that many people do not own firearms because of the strict licensing of them, making them easy targets for those who have no regard for the firearms laws, and are more than willing to use them while committing a crime. I think you will find that California's armed crime rate is the equal of most any other state in the Union, ranking right there with D.C., while having some of the most restrictive firearms laws in the country. I think, that if you quizzed your friends with the proper respect, you would find that they still have at least one firearm available, albeit well-hidden and rarely discussed. Criminals are not afraid to use anything to their advantage, and will happily carry a firearm, knowing that it will give them an advantage over those who do not have one. Breaking the laws is what they do; one more broken law "bothers them not". Theirs is a different reasoning, one born of desperation, lack of success in the "normal" world, or just plain hatred of people who have those things that the know they will never be able to afford. Poor people don't get robbed; they have nothing to steal. Rich people don't get robbed; they can afford protections against robbery. It is the middle class that gets robbed because a) there are many more of them, b) they are much more likely to adhere to restrictive laws such as the firearms laws in California or D.C., c) they believe that "it won't happen to me", and d) they believe that the police will catch the crook, and the crook will be punished. Of those four reasons, d is the most unbelievable of them all. Very few armed robberies are solved, and those where the crook is caught usually have the firearms charges plea-bargained away by their attorneys. Check your local statistics, and you will find this to be true: Very few people who have commited crimes with a firearm have firearms convictions on their records. Why? Because crimes commited with a firearm carry some of the most severe punishments, and are ALWAYS the first to be plea-bargained away. Blame the public prosecutors, whose wages you pay, for being lazy and not protecting the tax-paying public from these gun-wielding criminals. Those are the ones I blame for the state of firearms crime in this country, and no one else. It has been going on for decades, longer than I've been alive (52 years), and has become an entrenched "way of life" in prosecuting armed criminals. The laws are on the books, but are rarely enforced, and even more rarely brought to trial. A bit long, but I could go on more. There are over 15,000 (probably more) firearms laws on the books in this country, and the legal system REFUSES TO ENFORCE THEM. That is where our problem lies, and no where else...... http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#153975Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:43:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:153975scott henderson nvPam, you (and most of your comrades here) use a variety of fallacious argument tactics. One of your favorites appears to be ad hominem, but there are several others you use. For example you (and others) set up an argument no one is making – “Iraq was involved in 9-11”, in fact I don’t see anyone making that argument – that is the straw man. Another tactic is the Ambiguous Assertion such as “Bush is trampling on the Bill of Rights or the Constitution” – this claim is made without specifics. One that drives me personally crazy is the Argument by Slogan – “Bush lied people died”, as if repeating something over and over makes it true. The list goes on and on.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#154218Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:54:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:154218Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, CaliforniaDarrel In Edinboro, PA - Your post is extremely well written, and I again thank you your thorough response, in addition to taking that much time to respond to me. I sincerely appreciate. I do have many things to ask you, or make points and feel you deserve the same thoughtful response, which will take time. I am preparing for a meeting; however, I will respond to you later or this evening. Thank you and you extremely reasonable, as I said yesterday. We may disagree; however, I respect the way you debate and your knowledge (although some lack of California laws though). Again, thank you.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#154337Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:36:56 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:154337Darrel In Edinboro, PA True to prediction, I see that various representatives of foreign governments are chastising the U.S. for "lax" gun restrictions. Of course, the Chinese, whose country is a bastion of freedoms and civil rights, has chimed in, too. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! China, the country where peasant farmers are routinely shot for protesting the fact that the land they have farmed for generations is stolen and sold by corrupt and unscrupulous politicians, backed by the "police" and government. To them I say, "clean up your own house before you criticize mine!" Sanctimonious children of unknown fatherhood! Great Britain chimes in, where gun crimes are increasing at an exponential rate that dwarfs any such increase in this country! Where no civilian is allowed to keep any kind of gun, except for the moneyed elite, who can keep theirs at the "club". Traitorous cretins! It was American riflemen, who learned to shoot accurately and efficiently at home, who helped save your country during the so-destructive World Wars. Australia, where the actions of one deranged moron resulted in the total ban on all weapons for everyone but the police and military, nearly resulting in violent civil unrest and riots. The results of that very-recent experiment remain to be seen, as the Australians are starting to experience the rise of radical Islam in their immediate neighborhood. I repeat what I said at the end of my previous post: This country would not be experiencing the level of firearms crime we have if the laws on the books were being enforced by our legal system. As it is, over 90 percent of firearms crimes are bargained away by prosecutors eager to get any conviction that will add to the numbers they can display to the public at election time. To you prosecutors who do such bargaining, I say it is your fault, and totally yuour fault, and no one else's. Your failure to uphold and enforce the law, and your abject willingness to bargain these firearms crimes away, will be the death of many more innocent civilians in this country. Your panty-waist philosophies regarding prosecution of firearms crimes shows to me just what you are: selfish, pandering, statistic-wielding politicians who have no respect for the average American citizen, and really don't care what really happens to us, as long as you get to keep your paid-by-the-tax-payer police protections. I'm starting to get a little ******-off, so I'm going to stop now. Anyone who can rebut this, go ahead and try. First, examine the numbers of crimes committed with a firearm in your community, and then compare that to the number of actual firearm-crime convictions in your community. Then talk to me. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#154369Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:46:17 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:154369Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, CaliforniaScott, Nevada - PS: After you complete your assigned homework, and in particular, my assignment to read The Geneva Convention, please write a five-paragraph essay on how George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld illegally treated prisoners of war at Gitmo!! Fact Scottie, not fiction - sorry son. Also, please report on both the illegal and numerous accounts of abuse and torture of prisoners held in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq!! After your essay is completed, please submit it to this blog. It will either be riddled with LIES, or maybe, you will FINALLLY see George W. Bush and his Administration for the criminals they are!!http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#154478Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:27:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:154478C A, Tuscaloosa, ALScott and Pam: The Constitution reads" We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. The Constitution reads We the People, not I George W. Bush. The Constitution says We the People shall establish what is just, what we believe is needed to insure domestic tranquility and to provide common defence of our nation. Not George W. Bush. We the People shall decide what promotes general Welfare of its citizens and what is required to secure for its citizens the blessings of Liberty. Not George W. Bush. And We the People do ordain and establish the Constitution under which We the People wish to govern ourselves. Not George W. Bush. George W. Bush holds the office of President which is an instrument of the Constitution, an instrument of the People to insure that what We the People hold true for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is administered properly by this instrument of the Constitution, the Presidency. The only right George W. Bush has is the same as the rest of the people of the United States. A single voice or vote or opinion as to how we the People should and will be governed. He does not have the right to over-ride and/or to make decisions affecting the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of the People that is in direct conflict with their wishes. This is how George W. Bush is trampling on the Constition. The People have spoken and the majority want our troops out of this conflict in Iraq. As an instrument of the People's wishes and not "the" sole decision maker under the Constitution George W. Bush has defied and ignored the People who created, own and administer this Constitution, and remains in Iraq with some of our citizens, some of which are losing their lives which is not promoting their general welfare. He won't even give the People whom the majority wish to leave Iraq a time frame as to when their wishes (and instructions) will be followed. If that is not trampling on "OUR" Constituion I don't know what is. That is fact. It is not made up. It is not an illusion. Bush needs to be impeached. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#154636Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:33:02 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:154636Lee HolmesScott is on to something here.Ad hominum attack is a routine device used by Bush critics aimed at not only the administration[the lying urban legend now making the rounds in the blogosphere[see:above post by P.T.et al] that Bush uttered comments bearing upon 'the right of Americans to possess arms'the moment he learned of the VT tragedy when he said no such thing],but those who have rightly supported the nation through GOP AND Democrat administrations who sought to lessen its fracturing.I was aligned against the GOP in its impeachment of Clinton and I oppose it now with Bush as it is not enough to base 'evidence'of 'lies'upon emotion,which is a fragile,mallable,totally exploitable thing.Easy to make the claim of 'criminality'eminating from a president.Harder to actually prove it and to date,the Pams of the world have been utterly defficient in their responsibility to bring forth unfettered,irrefutable facts that would support their opinions which range from the bizzare['wars for oil'] to the vapid['the destruction of an entire nation'],which is in no way the case.Their allegiances to the Constitution are phonier than a counterfeit nickel.Such individuals set up their 'NRA'strawman in order to circumvent and destroy an enshrined Amendment to that Document,not merely in a portion,but in its entirety.'Fairness Doctrines'are cooked up by liberals who think that one FOX is too many,taking the 1st Amendment and throttling it at their leisure,desiring to control all that we hear,watch or see.Again,strawman arguments are devised in order to further their goals.If the mavens of FOX are 'liars'then they deserve to be silenced,yet every non-partisan study of the media even including that of far leftwinged Noam Chomskeys masterpiece 'Maunufacturing Dissent',finds that dishonesty abounds in ALL media,not merely those enclaves staked out by the conservative right.[I can,off the top of my head, list ten recent examples,in order,in just the last several months,from other-than-FOX networks,radio,and print-media,from left to center,which have been judged to be false from respected non-partisan news watchdogs that have no axe to grind except getting to the facts].Screaming at a president and inventing lies in order to support your own viewpoint,particularly at the height of a national tragedy, makes one no better than a Reign of Terror Jacobin,childish,unstable,unsophistcated,and in some cases,quite dangerous.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#154680Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:48:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:154680scott henderson nvPam Bignardi, San Pedro, California (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:46 PM) I don't know what your education level is and would rather not unkindly speculate, but you really do need to work on your argument tactics. You tend to make rather generalized statements which you assert as true with no backup, another tendency is to use ad homonym (if you are unsure what this is let me know) a tactic that tells me you are on the defensive, the straw man arguments are pointless. I can give you reading suggestions if you are interested in working on your weaknesses. CA – where do you get this stuff it’s just silly “we the people, not I George Bush”?? I guess this is argument by absurdity. Are you suggesting that the President has no constitutional authority, that he has to get the permission of the majority to make a decision?? http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#154705Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:57:31 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:154705Jamie, Chula Vista, CAScott Henderson, NV: '“Bush lied people died”, as if repeating something over and over makes it true.' I just about dropped my laptop reading that little diddy of yours. HAH! I know hearing there were WMD in Iraq over and over and over and over again, isn't repetition, is it? How about 'staying the course,' over and over and over again. Good grief. As my brother is getting ready to redploy, please keep him,his children and all of our military in your prayers, because God help all those that started this war if my brother dies. Over 3,300 Americans DEAD! Why? Because BUSH LIED and PEOPLE DIED! Saddle up boy, raise your right hand, and go fight the fight! http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#154841Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:50:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:154841Lee HolmesCA Your opinion is unsound.The same Framers which represented ''We The People''are the same ones who granted the Executive Branch its array of powers that have been utilized by all from Lincoln to Bush.It is for the Founders other source of power,the Judicial,to determine whether or not Bush has in actuality,rather than emotive opinion,'trampled'the Constitution.In the lack of this,it becomes the people who have retained the vested right awarded by the Document to toss 'their bums'out every four years.Presidents down through all of the nations history have acted in defiance of 'peoples wishes'which have no place of respect within the Constitution outside of the sole regions of the vote,and the means to craft amendment based upon such votes.The 'people'speak through these votes.Anything else[i.e.-''wishes'',or''desires''or ''demands''] is to promote a mobocracy which ,as the Founders themselves observed[in their lifetimes as they were all witnesses to the French Revolution and its horrific use of the 'Vox Populi'],has no place dwelling within the bounds of the Document.Your desires do not a case for 'impeachment'make.You know full well what the Constitution in its actuality demands in order to go foward with such a proceeding, and unless and until you can present irrevocable proof of 'high crimes and misdemenours'',Bush will finish his presidency undeterred by the threat of impeachment.All that critics of the war can do within constitutional bounds at this particular time is to demand that,like Vietnam,and through their elected officials,funding for the war be cut away entirely.Yet the Documents third source of power,the Legislative,will not go down this penultimate road.They made this scene when they gave Bush what he asked.And now,acting within the bounds of the Document that ties them all,they must live with the results of their decision.Thus,it becomes less an issue of a Bushian 'trampling'of the Constitution and more of congressional spinelessness.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#154986Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:53:49 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:154986C A, Tuscaloosa, ALLee & Scott: I am well aware of the powers of the Executive Branch, but no President was authorized by the founding fathers the right to play king or dictator and completely ignore the wishes of the citizens of this country. And if those holding the office take this country down a path of destruction that requires more immediate action rather than waiting 4, 3, 2 years to vote them out, don't tell me the people of this country do not have the right to take such action. To remove if necessary those powers extended to the office in the first place. The same holds true for a weak'kneed congress who fail to take action on behalf of their constiuents, the people of this country. It's amazing to me how those who argue against gun control do so because they feel they have the right to bear arms to protect themselves against a corrupt and unjust central government that wishes to take away their rights yet at the same time they want to give Geroge W. Bush all the support and room he needs to destroy the principles on which this country was founded. My opinion is very sound. I suppose Lee and Scott both would suggest that no matter what a President does, as long as it is not illegal, the people of this country have to suffer the consequences of this person's decisions even if in violation of the people's alienable rights under the Constitution. I don't think so. And don't forget, our Constitution was created and drafted with just as much passion (perhaps more) than your tendency to argue every point with what you consider cold hard facts. At the time, I'm sure both would have been Tories spouting out details of what is right and what is wrong while the people tarred and feathered you before they shipped you back to your King. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#155049Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:28:02 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:155049C A, Tuscaloosa, ALLee: Besides, our founding fathers provided the Presidency with certain Executive Powers for those who hold the office who are competent, mature and act in the best interest of this country. We do not have such a President in office at this time. I need no law or specific Constitutional authority no matter how detailed to tell me this President needs to be removed from office. And Scott: "We the People" may sound silly to you, but I think most Americans take it very seriously. And no President who does not serve "We the People" no matter their Constitutional authority should be allowed to take this country down a road of destruction. The basis of their authority lies within the competent and responsible manner in which they exercise this authority. A Principal has authority in a school, but you wouldn't want to place such authority into the hands of a 2 year old and then claim they have the authority to determine school policy. Authority can only be granted and maintained when that authority is used in a responsible manner that represents the desires of the collective. Other Monarchs in history have also had authority, some even claiming given to them by God, but many also met a quick demise at the hands of their constituents for abusing such authority. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#155072Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:48:14 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:155072Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California Jamie, Chula Vista, CA - My prayers, from this point on will be with your brother, your family members and you. God bless you!! Pay absolutely no attention to Scott. He is really 14 years old, and knows absolutely nothing and his comments don't just border on insanity, they are insane!! I am so sorry to hear your brother must go back to the hell created by George W. Bush. Your family will be added to my prayer list.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#155085Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:58:06 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:155085C A, Tuscaloosa, ALJamie-Chula Vista, CA: I pray and hope your brother returns home well and in good health. You have to understand that people like Scott and Lee are so hung up on protecting this President and his corrupt war loving administration that they have little regard for the American soldier being sent overseas to participate in this conflict. Although against our role in this conflict I will and do support your brother fully until such time we can somehow force this President to bring our soldiers home out of harms way and to do so in a manner that is safe and quick. It's a shame that those of us who want your brother home safe and sound are attacked by those who want to support this President in his desire to send more troops over. Yet they argue they are the one's who supoport the troops. Now that is an argument by absurdity. Tell your brother from one vet to another I wish him well and Gods-speed. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#155098Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:08:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:155098Lee HolmesCA.You assertions are based in opinion.The Document does not move on mere opinion but the law.That you believe the president 'must'be removed by impeachment is based upon opinion,not the laws that the Document demands in order for such proceedings to go forward.Our nation is not a committee.It is a constitutional republic.Even the Founders readily knew that the idiot governs along with the brilliant.Just because there are those who believe that we are suffering an 'idiot'does not make your case.Bear in mind that your next presidential desire,may be the next mans idiot.Above you all,as long as there is America,there will also be the Document,which will govern the brilliant and the dullwitted alike.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#155102Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:13:17 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:155102Don Oubre, Paulina, LouisianaScott Henderson NV; No one set up an argument that Scott are his administration he loves said Irag Was Involved With 911, the point not the argument being made is that Iraq had nothing to do with 911 so why are we there, you twist word's for your benefit. Let's talk about generalized statement's, you over & over state It does not matter what the motivation of the DEMOCRAT'S & ANTI WAR ACTIVIST are they have in effect aligned themselves with the terrorist! All democrat's how general, & how twisted [Sick] is that. You again tried to justify that general statement this way, & i quote you "If you prevail in keeping "THE Serial Killer Alive" regardless of your motivation, you bear some of the responsibility for future murder's he might commit so no matter what the motivation of the DEMOCRAT'S & ANTI WAR ACTIVIST are they in effect aligned themselves with the terrorist, the road to hell is paved on good intention's" un quote. President Bush said & i quote "I don't even think about Osama Bin Laden anymore" un quote, so in your word's he himself [BUSH] has prevailed in keeping " THE SERIAL KILLER ALIVE "http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#155142Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:54:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:155142Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, CaliforniaDon Oubre, Paulina, Louisiana - No matter how Scott tries to slice and dice his words, he has said on several occasions on these blogs that Iraq was tied to 9/11. It's on old threads, and he knows it. He apparently has come to the conclusion that a.) He was wrong, and multiple times, yet refuses to admit it, or b.) He is back-peddling faster than Alberto Gonzalez has been doing!! You are much kinder than me my friend, as my patience cannot tolerate such false statements and I come back with both barrels!!http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#155217Wed, 18 Apr 2007 00:24:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:155217C A, Tuscaloosa, ALLee: Of course much of what I say is opinion. Don't try and get me into a debate on constitutional law. I am quite aware of constitutional law and the powers of the executive branch. I am here to express my feelings as are a lot of people here. Feelings and passion and opinion is what shaped this country. As well as men and women who had the guts to say enough is enough without worrying that they were violating any English laws that made them subjects of King George. In fact they were considered traitors to Great Britain. And I have no doubt when writing the constitution if they could have foreseen someone as incompetent as GW holding the office of President of the United States they would have been a little more supportive of the guillotine introduced in the French revolution. You make some good points Lee if one were here to dicsuss the technical qualities of the atom. If you would express some passion with your detailed accounts as to why GW is safe under the current constitution they would carry more weight with those who have passion for their beliefs. I'm sure that when Patrick Henry claimed with a clear loud voice give me liberty of give me death he was not concerned at the time for English laws that made him a knotraitor to the King. And Frankly Lee, I think you too feel deep down inside that GW has poorly executed this conflict in Iraq after the initial destruction of Saddams military forces. You just don't want to admit it. If this is not true then thank Jamie's brother from CA for going to Iraq to keep you safe here at home, and hope and pray he comes back unharmed. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#155242Wed, 18 Apr 2007 01:04:44 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:155242scott henderson nvPam Bignardi, San Pedro, California (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:54 PM) Pam, That is simply a lie, I never made an attempt to tie 9-11 to Iraq. This is argument by deception a common tactic of the left. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#155314Wed, 18 Apr 2007 02:16:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:155314Lee HolmesCA-Nonsense.I have generously observed Bushs failings in post-invasion Iraq,particularly in his failure to distance himself from the Wolfowitzian neo-conservatives and paying more atention to McCain and [back when he was more honest],Joe Biden who urged the president to send more troops in order to deal with the rising terrorist insurgency.Bushs refusal at the behest of Rumsfeld was a huge strategic error on his portion.Yet what his opposites demand is no better a deal and leaves America considering a Hobsons Choice.Take this ''stopdate''.Even the bi-partisan Iraq Study Group,that the Democrats were using as a bludgeon with which to beat Bush,argued strenuously against such a manouvre.[essentially taking a backwards-ticking LED time clock a la Times Square,placing it in the desert between Ramadi and Mosul,and advertising the exact time and date that we were to retreat from Iraq].Nor is treating with terrorist regimes amounting to any good.Within days of Pelosis ''path to peace running through Damascus'',the United Nations Secretary General Ki-Moon came into possession of recon photos showing arms moving across the Syrian border into Lebanon ,bound for the terrorist group HEZBOLLAH,a blatant violation of the cease-fire accords and UN Resolution 1701.As we speak,the Security Council is deciding upon what action to take regarding Syria.I warned this audience that Pelosi was being played as a rube and in this I was correct in the light of these new events.The Democrat House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer met last week in Cairo with leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood,whose military arm is HAMAS,already implicated in the murders of several of their own people in Gaza,terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians including rape and torture,the kidnapping and possible murder of a BBC journalist,and its entry into Iraq to fight as militants whose government refuses to recognize the legitimate pre-1967 state of Israel.Though still in dispute,a branch of this 'brotherhood'may have been responsible for the formation of a new group,al Qaeda In North Africa,that bombed targets in Algeria and Morocco last week threatening to go after Spain and France next.The Democrat leadership has already proven itself not simply dilatory in coming up with concrete solutions in Iraq and the wider war on terror which is now moving across entire continents[it's whole presidential candidate team has simply no new ideas and this goes for frontrunners Clinton and Obama],but it is willfully allowing itself to be gulled by terrocracies that have no designs for actual peace in the region,indeed,are playing us long enough to get us out so that they may take over and expand.Nothing good for the entire human race can come from such plans,and this does not even allow for a nuclear-tipped Iran.If Bush needs to grow a 'brain',Democrats need to grow a spine.As my nephew is serving with the 82d and has already been to Iraq along with many of my closest friends in the USMC,a day does not go by where I do not send prayers for their safe return.This includes all who serve. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#155985Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:19:44 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:155985scott henderson nvPam Bignardi, San Pedro, California (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:54 PM) Pam if I have tried to link 9/11 and Iraq in any way several times, surely you can find one post and refer to it. If you can't then I expect an apology for the error (lie?). I think this is what happens to Bush, his administration, conservative talk show hosts, etc. People just assume things without thought about the truth of the assumption.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#156444Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:53:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:156444C A, Tuscaloosa, ALLee Holmes: You have made some good points. I also respect you for you and your nephew's service. I served in Nam three tours and now have two sons in Iraq. I may disagree with you on many points, but I also have labeled the Dems spineless on many occasions. I do not think (my opinion) that this conflict is going to result in anything but more problems for the US and the middle east if we stay the course. And based on that I am one who thinks that we should place not one more American life on the line. http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#156516Wed, 18 Apr 2007 19:41:49 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:156516DC Chino Hills, CAWhy haven't we heard from Jessie Jackson or Al Sharpten...oh I think I know why.http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/04/16/151476.aspx#160465Fri, 20 Apr 2007 00:05:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:160465Kevin Michael Albany, NYI would like someone to address how the Bush administration is exploiting the symphathies of the American Public to legitimize the escalation of a failed occupation in Iraq. This administration doesn't care if a million Iraqis die in a civil war. As well they could care less if a million Iraqis died under their incompetent occupation, escalation, and permanent base installation. You have John McCain singing like a vodka drunk about stumbling into Iran while the Boob World Order surrounds Persia from the Caspian to the British book market. Aren't we Freeworlders swell. Oh and nice job today Mr. Attorney General, America is so proud. ps. no nukes at all in the middle east and no more kukes running WESTERN CIVILIZATION!