Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Theresa K Minneapolis, MN — Wed, 30 May 2007 00:58:34 GMT

I don't care if Al Gore is running or not. IF he is, he better speak now or I will think he is indecisive. Wait, I all ready think that. He isn’t looking out for the country any more than any of the other candidates. He is doing promos for whatever book, movie or event he is shilling. As far as the environment, there is a middle ground between the ‘sky is falling’ and ‘everything is ok’ scenarios both sides paint. As for Cindy Sheehan, she met with the president, that wasn’t enough. She wanted to meet again. She went on a hunger strike, but didn’t give up food. I think this has been about how Cindy generates press for Cindy. I don't think the trips to Cuba or Venezuela were about helping the troops either. I am against this war and think we should be pulling out of Iraq, but I am not on Cindy’s side. I have written my Senator letting them know I think the non-timeline bill passed last week is a crock. Oh, and I would love to hear more about that Presidential Directive from last Friday. That just smells.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Sue; West Allis, Wisconsin — Wed, 30 May 2007 01:03:19 GMT

We're doomed. When the "catastrophic event" occurs which makes George into the King, I'll remind all of you at Countdown that you thought Lindsey Lohan much more important to cover (along with Miss USA and Rosie's tiff with Elisabeth).

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Sue; West Allis, Wisconsin — Wed, 30 May 2007 01:06:15 GMT

By the way, 117 comments on the Dictator story you didn't cover (normally 40-50 each). At least we understand that it's an important story.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Eldridge PA — Wed, 30 May 2007 01:52:59 GMT

I thought I would have liked the Gore interview more but... The questions seemed a bit weak for starters but then his answers really didn't resonate with me. Yes, he got around to making his point about the book but nothing really hit home. If you want an utter "assualt" on reason you need look no further than say... um... the Creation museum! The museum itself might not be so bad but when the owner was asked, he attacked any shred of reason/proof/evidence/fact/observation/sanity... by saying on CNN "There is evidence being 'withheld' from the public that would make his claims true." Um... HELLO? This answer literally screams how you can just simply denny the truth - ANY TRUTH - at will anymore by simply referencing to something 'unseen' that is (or would be if you could actually see it) all the more convincing. Yeah, like Iraqi INTELLIGENCE, NOT! Perhaps Gore is decidedly not the one, but with ALL that has happened I sort of expect more emotion and fire from the dems, not casually reading protest speaches as our constitution is shredded. Please people get up and break something for a change. Tear down the FREAK'EN podium as they pull Habious Corpus from the constitution for god's sake!

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Harold Cadman, Hollis, NH — Wed, 30 May 2007 02:20:00 GMT

Keith, You seem to be a reasonable, not-paid-off reporter (unlike Oreally, Hannity & JScarborough) but you work for a major media outlet who employs JS... How can I give any credibility to MSNBC... I'm afraid even you are on the dole... You must be doing a rope-a-dope on us americans... when JS can no longer be tolerated you step in and ramp up the propaganda... until then... I like you... but that could end in seconds... Don't be like the coward democrats... always stand for Truth, Justice and the American way... Sincere Regards - Harold

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Chris Eldridge, Harrisburg PA — Wed, 30 May 2007 04:01:43 GMT

As for where the 'public disconnect' occurs in the attack on reason... try the MEDIA! Even just two days ago EVEN AFTER ALL THE TIMES THE ADMIN. LIED, NBC still grants Bush and his propaganda virtually unchallenged airtime. Time and time again the administration has tried to say Iran is deliberately giving weapons to Iraq to kill Americans only to have it refuted moments later by the Joint Chiefs who said otherwise. And yet, time and time again, NBC has repeated the Bush line without any measure of context to say this has repeatedly been shown not true, that Sunis are more at fault, that there are indeed American made weapons killing Americans, that we trained Iraqis to attack like they do and so on. It is OUTRAGEOUS what the media TO THIS DAY had done and something most definitely is NOT right at all about the whole situation. I especially love the disconnect in the media (countdown included) as they go from heart-breaking and outrageous report by Amnesty International on prisoner abuse - right into who has the best rap/hip hop CD right in virtually the same breath. No wonder the public has no sense of the severity of the situation. The media has not provided it. After the recent dem capitulation (when they were under absolutely NO obligation to give him anything) and especially after they pulled the specific wording in their new funding bill that would have expressly prohibited an attack on Iran, I began not just to question the administration but the dems and people like Hillary especially. This is an utter green light to attack Iran. As John Dean said, Bush is likely to just claim he already has war authorization to attack Iran as part of his war on terror. It literally is as if the country is entirely run by the Israeli, oil, and military lobbies. Dems, republicans, the administration, and media (right, left and center) in all. How Dare we trade blood for oil!

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowa — Wed, 30 May 2007 04:05:31 GMT

#1. Obviously afraid of drunken chauffers(I mean, look what happened to Princess Di!), Lindsay has chosen to do her own drunk driving. #2. Maybe they could quarantine Dubya for Humunculosis, huh? #3 Rumors got it that Al is going to make a Docudrama about Tippers' Global Warming called, "No More Mentors Albums After Midnight".#4. Sicky told him to run again. #5. Hey, Dubya never PROMISED us a Rose Garden. Only WMD's, Beefcake Uraminum, and Nucular Psychos.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

mike gruey, bisbee, arizona — Wed, 30 May 2007 04:40:41 GMT

ok, you just discussed the meaningless tripe, a.k.a. american idol, etc.,.. then why do you continue to give credence to this crap... lynsey lohan, miss universe?... blah, blah, blah... if you're trying your damnedest to fill space... not good enough! keith! say something to your producers, you don't really find that shiza interesting... do ya?

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

p.8.n in (ick) FL — Wed, 30 May 2007 05:01:21 GMT

Well this is my first post EVER on any blog or what have you on these here interwebs. I guess I'm more of the lurker variety. YIKES! Seriously though I had to comment on the appearance of Al Gore. How can you allow him to meander through a response to your questions like that?!? SUCCINCT PLEASE! I was dozing by his second stanza, responding to your first question re: Cindy Sheehan. For the love of God please tell him to NOT run again. Yeah I was not pleased with his verbose, thinly veiled condescension regarding Ms Sheehan or your valid questions regarding the apathy-inducing effect that's been stirred up since the Supplemental Vote. I dunno, after reading her adios letter as well as the soul-crunching piece Andrew J. Bacevich penned this past Sunday in the Post, I believe your questions regarding the effect this war/admin/propaganda has on average skeptical Americans deserved a better response. He seemed to be too careful and that smacked of the toe-dipping idea of his running again. NO THANKS! If he can't take a stand... stay out!

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 05:15:40 GMT

Sue; West Allis, Wisconsin - Ditto AGAIN!!!!

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Amy C., NC — Wed, 30 May 2007 05:39:12 GMT

Thank you, it was refreshing to see Al Gore share some of his thoughts with Countdown tonight. I think he's right on the money that we've become intellectually vulnerable and morally apathetic because reason and respect have become irrelevant to the national discussion. Free journalism, I think, is supposed to serve a greater purpose as being the conscience of a nation, and while I think Countdown and Keith currently do the best at keeping this spirit in mind, there is still a failure to motivate because let's face it: the truth does not necessarily set one free. It seems that the typical modus operandi for debate these days is not to go for the merits of a person's argument first, but in a split second determine which side of the political fence it comes from and dismiss it from there. I hardly ever use the terms "conservative" and "liberal" terms seriously for that reason; labels often disable, as they say. It's no wonder that we'd rather not argue and instead shut our brains off to watch stuff like American Idol--it's futile in this environment to even try when the stereotypes tend to carry more weight than the arguments themselves. It's also an environment that does not leave comfortable room for error or self-correction, even though we know we're imperfect, and the only way people can learn is through mistakes and exposure to new information. We should be more lenient to people who can at least admit their shortcomings and errors, and not pander to loudmouths who refuse to admit when they are--at least once in a while--dead wrong. The notion of journalistic fallibility is why I think Countdown is a credible newscast; it is a news program where I have seen corrections/amendments made to things said in previous tapings, as well as allow for people with different takes and criticisms to respond and have a voice in this blog. It's what any decent piece of journalism would do. I don't expect much, but I always hope that Countdown's popularity is a sign that people are just as sick to death of all the BS as I am and that this season of sensationalism will someday come to an end...

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Amy C., NC — Wed, 30 May 2007 05:54:01 GMT

Sorry for the double-post, but I also have to disagree slightly with Keith and Chris Cillizza about the conclusion that Gore, in so many words, said "maybe" about relaunching a presidential campaign. My impression is that he is simply not interested in playing the game anymore as the kind of fustercluck that it is now. I might buy that he would "maybe" accept an appointed position in the federal gov't later on, but even then I wouldn't be so sure.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Peyton Luckett, Chicago, IL — Wed, 30 May 2007 06:32:31 GMT

Not to seem nitpicky, but the cheese roll is in Gloucestershire.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

r chapman — Wed, 30 May 2007 07:33:35 GMT

the worst president in the worldddddd

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Chris Rutherford, Binghamton, New York — Wed, 30 May 2007 13:35:53 GMT

I would for just one day, one day, like to sign on to any of the news services and NOT see anything about celebrity at all. This country is so twisted about their priorities, we can't separate the important form the meaningless. I think Mr. Olbermann is right on track in his commentary about the Democrats letting us down, they DID! I think also that CIndy Sheehan probably thought she needed more from the President, I don't know for sure if she did or didn't, know one does. I just wonder when the American people are going to stand up and say ENOUGH IS A ENOUGH! The current administration is corrupt and full of comtempt, they have proved this repeatedly....wake up America. We have a rough rocky road to tavel already, lets not let it continue to get worse.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Chris Eldirdge, Harrisburg PA — Wed, 30 May 2007 13:52:22 GMT

Sue, Wisconsin, I think the media and dem plan is to just ignor him and hope he quietly goes away. ...a fatal mistake I would think given his overwheming pre-disposition to attack Iran and land us in another even more bloody war than Iraq overnight. Perhaps the dems and the media are afraid to see how much power he really has? We also have to keep in mind that a brewing/wantabe dictatorship might actually "WANT" to provoke a power struggle against them just to give them the excuse they need to crack down... Kind a strange way of thinking about it isn't it? In other words, they might actually want to provoke the public to challenge their authority before they have to leave office and claim some sort of 'insurrection' which is (to my knowledge) what would actually allow that bill to be invoked. Don't put ===> A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G <=== a past the NEOCONS. They've already started a false war and are responsible for a form of genocide by taking down all policing controls and allowing the people to essentially kill each other.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

DCohn, Cleveland, OH — Wed, 30 May 2007 14:03:28 GMT

KO, bravo and stop the presses great interview with Mr. Gore. You seem to always get it right unklike the other poeple on at your time slot. He spoke well and didnt seem to get off track with questions about running. Let's just remember folks, you heard it here first. Thanks for also commenting on the poor mathematics of General Pace, as I stated before, I am not a math genus or a card carrying memeber of Mensa but, come on, get it right! Peace

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Lisa in Fond Du Lac, WI — Wed, 30 May 2007 14:38:14 GMT

I enjoyed Al's interview. I still wish that there would of been more coverage about Cindy Sheehan. I think that she has been so verbally abused by the right. She gave the ultimate sacrifice for this county, her child's life. Why isn't there a gasp of horror from the american public. I am sad for her and for our troops currently in this occupation.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

scott henderson nv — Wed, 30 May 2007 14:48:57 GMT

It would be interesting if Gore entered the race. I'm not sure however that he could tolorate another loss, he kind of popped a cork over the last one. If he loses another one he'll end up in a straight jacket screaming "I'm the real ruler..eh.. president!" He thinks it's a birthright or something.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 15:11:15 GMT

Khalil al-Zahawi was shot dead on the steps of his house. In an American press that focuses on the deaths of every American soldier, his death was not covered. It was not mentioned. This man's 'crime'? He was one of the greatest living Muslim Calligraphers in the world. The sectarian violence continues. On the day al-Zahawi died, police found another twelve bodies that had been picked up, tortured, and then executed. Maybe what angers me towards the Left and the Right at this point is that no one cares about the lives of people who aren't Americans. At the very least, that is what it seems to me. 3,467 American soldiers have lost their lives, and another 10,000 or so have been crippled. 655,000 Iraqis are estimated to have died in this war. 655,000 men, women and children who did not sign up to 'defend their nation'. Who have not been involved in terrorist activities. Who have been caught in the middle of this insane War. Between the Americans and the Terrorists, twenty times the number of Iraqis have died in this war than died under Saddam Hussien. In essence, two hundred Iraqis have died for every American killed. I have grown dissillusioned with both sides in this nation and not because of that vote. I have grown dissillusioned listening to 'Liberals' who are as dogmatic as the 'Conservatives'. I am tired of the nostalga that permeates the Left. I'm tired of hearing people with no concept of history. I'm also tired of people who want to give up the fight to end this war just because of one set back. If you want to end this war, you fight it by preasuring the Republicans who have steadfastly refused to give up on Bush. You don't do it by going after the Democrats who support your cause. Unfortunately, that really is all I see happening anymore. The 'Left' long ago became as unwilling to have anyone counter their beliefs as the 'Right', even if they support their causes.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 15:31:27 GMT

What's going on with this blog? People are complaining that items aren't being posted (several of mine have never shown up and they weren't in any way objectionable) and updates are slow and late in the day. What's going on with Countdown? I really, really, really want to know about the "dictator" presidential directive!! That seems to have just dropped off the agenda. I usually can keep my paranoia locked securely in the basement but the absolute silence of Countdown on that topic is waving a key in front of that lock. What's going on?

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 15:33:12 GMT

Scott - henderson nv: Ironic that, although I am close to being a rabid Gore supporter, I would have totally agreed with your post. If you had only left off the last 2 sentences we could have really started a discussion about this.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 15:35:55 GMT

Another note: There are no words to express my complete disinterest in Ms. Lohan. She can rot in rehab as far as I am concerned. Comeon Keith - cut the celebrity crap. I normally avoid using profanity but you guys are the only ones who have shown any real spine in reporting real news and I hate to see you spiral down. Give up that show biz stuff. PLEASE!!!

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 15:47:36 GMT

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA: (First a note to Countdown blog moderator - you really picked up my previous posts quickly so maybe the problems that have been noted are being resolved. Thank you) Now Bridgette, before you and Pam get going again, I just want to say that it appears to me that you guys are in violent agreement about your desired goals. I'm certain that in the details you might disagree but since I agree with both of you there can't be too large a separation. I, too, am really disgusted at the current state of affairs. I do want to hear rants and raves directed at both parties. I do want to hear complaints about the democrats so that we avoid the "party line" adherence which is so awful in the Republican party. So, who is "giving up"? I hear in this blog and in others that the public is being very vocal about this. In your previous posts, you've urged us to let the process work as it is designed to work? Right? Did I misunderstand? Always possible that I have. I've also heard many many times in this blog the absolute concern for the Iraqi people not just the American people who are caught up in this nightmare. So. If you just want to vent, I'm with you. If you want some real answers, let's talk about that. CA always has sound answers. OK?

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

FreeDem — Wed, 30 May 2007 16:06:45 GMT

When the Gang Of Pirates washed away Habeas Corpus, Kieth, You had great comments that I still use when I want to make that point. Now the **** has announced that when their next 9-11 is staged he will abandon the entire pretext of the past 250 years as well as "that stupid piece of Paper" and simply become Emperor. I went to your website and found more about a stupid drunk actress I never much heard about(or ever wanted to) then this next mile marker across the Rubicon, or rather since the Rubicon as they past that point seven years ago. Perhaps you could do like Nightline did to Carter and have a big clock that would say how many days without Habeas Corpus, America held hostage, or any other of the needles of outrage in the needle planet of outrages and just have the top five outrages of the day, and threaten to continue that until Democracy and Freedom are restored in this country. Then when we have a normal society again we can watch drunken actresses and toilet races.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 16:12:36 GMT

Independent from Texas. I almost posted this then didn't. There are several ways to get her to stop, but no body will. The studios finally put an end to Robert Downey Jr.'s excesses by informing him that he either cleaned up or he was never going to work in the business again. No one would hire him. He cleaned up. The other way is for people to not cover her and the stuff she does.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowa — Wed, 30 May 2007 16:17:20 GMT

Hey Darnit! Where's my Chili Recipe that didn't get Posted? Did you guys steal it and enter into the Betty Crocker Bakeoff? You Fascist Nazi Barbecue Bandits! OK. Here it is again: First off, The Secret Ingrediant is ------------------------.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

David, In — Wed, 30 May 2007 16:17:27 GMT

I'd like to post a few suggestions for tonight's program on what "we" your fans can't get enough of. 1.) Jolie secretly plans lavish wedding? 2.) Sheryl Crow hires same nanny as Julia Roberts and Reese Witherspoon? Brittany's man a fraud? 4.)Paris Hilton's aunt offers jail advise? If these suggestions don't work for Countdown then please SURPRISE us. We'll be anxiously awaiting!!

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 16:24:29 GMT

Oh yes, Independent from Texas. I've always noticed that Olbermann seems to reserve that last segment for celbrety news. First of all, he is right in that there are more people who are going to be talking about that then the rest of the hours stuff, but I've also noticed that it's about that time frame when most programs are kind of shutting down. They don't have anything really huge to say be they documentaries or anything else. I'm starting to wonder if he's doing this deliberately because, by that 50th minute, people aren't really paying attention anymore.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

FreeDem — Wed, 30 May 2007 16:24:42 GMT

In case you missed it http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive As a result of the asymmetric threat environment, adequate warning of potential emergencies that could pose a significant risk to the homeland might not be available, and therefore all continuity planning shall be based on the assumption that no such warning will be received.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Michael Tomaso, chicago IL — Wed, 30 May 2007 16:39:34 GMT

Your title should have been: Sheenan, She gone! Come on keith your a sports guy, surely hawk harrelson's lingo could have been used here.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

susan, Western KY — Wed, 30 May 2007 16:47:12 GMT

Who cares about Miss America falling on her A** or LiLo or JLo or Paris or Branjelina or TomKat!???? These people mean nothing but diversion from the real things that matter. Common KeithO get off this cloud.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 17:29:15 GMT

Actually, Independent from Texas, you and I think most of you as well, have missunderstood a lot of what I HAVE been trying to say. I haven't stood back and said just let it take its course. I've said 'this is how it is, now, let's push to make it work.' I am not a brilliant writter in English. For some reason, even though English is my primary language, I actually function better in different languages, especially Japanese, which seems to make sense to my brain. When attacked because I cannot get my point across easily in English, it just compounds the problem. We need to push the system to work, and we shouldn't concentrate on those who already are on our sides, but go after the 'weak' Republicans. Go after Snow, Collins, and the other 'Center-Right' politicians. Right now, the Dems in the Senate have a fifty seat minority on the issue of the war. This war can be ended, but the preasure shouldn't be on those who support ending it, but on those who are wavering in their support of continuing it. It means writing campaigns. It means advertisements in their districts. It means holding up to them the very real possibility of ensuring that 2008 means shutting the Republicans out of power totally for two years. But we can't just snap our fingers and the war will be over tomorrow. It's going to take work, some of it VERY hard difficult work, to get this to come to an end. I keep saying this and I keep getting shouted down for it, but Vietnam did not come to an end in a single day. One protest and it was all over. It took eight years of protests and preasure to see it end. Lyndon Johnson saw just what this war was doing to the country and tried to end it, but he was not able to find a solution to the war that would have satisfied anyone. What has disheartened me the most is that one set back and it's all doom and gloom. One set back that was inevitable. One set back that could not be avoided because we're dealing with a President with nothing to loose and a Congress that doesn't have many options. The ones they do have are not very great. I am tired of seeing both sides so full of hatred that the middle gets shut out. Sometimes it is hard to get my point across well, especially in a format that is so small and dense. Yes, sometimes I really do not like someone that's being held up as a media 'darling' because one story often drowns out the others that are there, or they become so lost in the attention that anything that they say gets lost. Do I feel sorry for them? Do I grieve for them? Yes, but I cannot easily put into English words the expressions that can make sense, and in my anger, I do have a problem getting things across even more. When I am angry, in part at myself, I get twisted up and some things I do say are callus or even mean. I am sorry for that.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 18:05:21 GMT

Bridgette. OK. Let's take the position, both of us, just for the moment, that no one is attacking you. May not be true, but let's just take that position. Then we look at what might be happening on the blog. No one here would argue with anything you said in this last post. What I see is that some of us, myself included, raged and ranted about the Dems letting us down. That is true. What you seem to be saying in this last post is that you think that ranting and raving indicates that we are quitting or blaming the wrong people? Is that an accurate assessment of your position? I think that I am representative of what a lot of us are thinking and doing. I'd like to kick the rear ends of alot of democrats in congress because I feel as though they let me down. I'd like to execute a lot of republicans in congress because I feel as though they are putting that party ahead of what the American public wants. This blog and others offers me a forum to vent that rage. What I am doing in addition to ranting and raving is writing letters, making phone calls, talking to other voters about both parties and what I expect of them. I do not believe this is over and all of us are aware that much work is required. All of us (some more than others because they literally lived through it) know what happened in VietNam. You seem to be very knowledgeable and active in the political process which is all I ask of any American. We may not agree on everything but let's all of us pay more attention to what we have to do than arguing with each other about who is attacking whom. Sound like a plan? Most of us say things that later we wished we had not said or, at least, had said differently (Scott -nv is this true for you? (smile)) Re the media and "darlings". Our media has been lost to the almighty dollar for many years now. Who do we have to blame for this? Ourselves. It take money to put out a paper, put out a magazine, put on a TV or radio program. If we spend our money rewarding the sponsors of programs that publish trash, then those are the programs we'll get. If the media uses one person (Shehan) to represent the anti-Iraq war, then that is what they have done. It is what it is. Since she was the first one to become vocal about it, she deserved the press. She didn't deserve the hate that was directed toward her. No one deserves that. Looking forward to future posts.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 18:16:07 GMT

Steve Turner --Iowa: Loved the post!!! However, paranoia aside, there can't be a secret Iowa Chili ingredient!! Why, honeychile, Texas is the only place where chili is real. That's why the blogging fascists stole your recipe!! he. he. he. loved it.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowa — Wed, 30 May 2007 18:30:26 GMT

IndeTex. No kidding. However, when I lived in Abilene, I grew me a Tickle-Tongue Tree that I brought back to Iowa. That, and some powdered Vinegaroon. You got to know the ratio of powder to bark ( learned from an old Sweetwater Cowboy, over a rattlesnake steak). I do miss the Horn Toad Tears, though. Yup. Got to go to Texas to get it right.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 18:30:41 GMT

Independent, I understand. I know that a lot of people are frustrated with the fact that the Dems couldn't do something. I am too. I just know that the Dems aren't the ones we need to change right now. I noticed that the anti-War tactics did change after Sheehan's outburst at the Congressmen and after the anti-War activists got one Congressman so angry he swore at them. Now they're targeting the Republicans. However, all I saw was anger directed at the Dems. Yes, I'm as disappointed as you all are, but I was trying to sound positive and getting shouted down. I will try in the future not to let others anger affect what and how I say things, but that cannot be guarenteed easily.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 18:34:52 GMT

Chocolate, Steve Turner, Chocolate and Chili Peppers. I put cinnomon in my chili too. And ginger, but not nutmeg LOL. I think they have had some major technical glitches these passed few days, which only contributed to the chaos.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

C A, Tuscaloosa, AL — Wed, 30 May 2007 18:36:36 GMT

Independence & Bridgette: Right on and very nice regarding your last posts. Independence is becoming (or always has been) quite the diplomat. Kudos to you kiddo. To both - use the mind to study human nature, use the heart to understand human nature. And never, never say it can't be done - smile-.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Todd, New Orleans, LA — Wed, 30 May 2007 18:46:56 GMT

Bridgette is on to something with the chocolate/chili pepper combo. There is something about the two that really compliment each other. I'd suggest a dark chocolate in small doses until you find the right level for your chili. Milk chocolate I find too sweet and not as effective in enhancing the pepper's flavor (probably because of reduced cocoa solids).

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 18:53:56 GMT

Thanks, CA. I things should be calmer now. I just replied to your post on the other thread.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 18:55:31 GMT

Todd, I use semi-sweet Dark Baker's Chocolate. I can't use Mole because it has wheat in it. I'm probably gluten intollerant. Thanks for the advice :)

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 19:19:08 GMT

Now this is something we can agree on!! Chili! Who'd a thunk it. (If you must use chocolate, semi-sweet is the way to go.) You understand, however, that we purists in Texas would not allow this within the state boundaries, right? Ok - back to the matters at hand---Where is the info on the "dictator" presidential directive?????

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 19:37:39 GMT

Independent, Texas - Thank you for your post of 11:47 AM. I have posted an apology to Bridgette on another thread and you are absolutely correct in everything you stated. It's truly sad that two people agree and then begin attacks against each other; however, tempers are flaring as a result of our frustration. I know Bridgette wants this war ended as much as I do and I credit you with giving me the ability to see through my anger and apologize. Independent, you are truly special, as taking the time to write what you did is a wonderful gesture!!

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 19:40:53 GMT

Independent - Your post of 2:05 PM is more than diplomatic, it's brilliant. C A, I'm sorry if I let you down in any way, as I know I did let my rage get out of control. Thanks to both of you for making me realize this. Bridgette, I am sorry!!

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 19:45:36 GMT

Larry - You are correct in that I have said things about George W. Bush; however, I have NEVER stated "I would have slapped him across the face". I do not believe in violence Larry; and as I have told you MANY times, I oppose the death penalty in ALL situations for a variety of reasons. I fully admit I have called George W. Bush a criminal, a moron, a mass murderer, a liar, an idiot, incompetent and stated I want him transported to The Hague in an orange jumpsuit. I have also stated that the only appropriate place for him is the prison cell formerly occupied by former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosovic. I am certain I have called him more names, but those are what I can recall right now. I still believe these statements Larry and I agree that the situation is going to get much worse as you have stated. This month already, 112 Americans lives have been cut short and there is no end in site because George W. Bush refuses to LISTEN to anyone. I read C A's suggestion above regarding ending this war in 90 days and it was brilliant. I have now changed my mind, as just because we do not have a veto-proof Congress, other things can be done as C A stated. I know you have stated the war needs to end. I agree that rage is present here Larry; however, it has come from both sides here, including from you and me. I truly hope that those of us who do want this war to come to an end can stop the personal attacks and at least attempt to work together in our common effort. I have not attacked you recently, as I promised you last week I would not. I have ignored your most recent attacks, as I sincerely want to work with ANYONE who wants this war over. Thank you for your time Larry.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 19:46:49 GMT

Bridgette - semi-sweet is my favorite!! You are on to something!! PEACE!!

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 20:00:11 GMT

One thing in all this I do want to stress. As much as no American soldier should have had to die in this, there is a grim and horrible thing happening to the Iraqi people. Above I posted this, but I suspect it got drowned out. 'Khalil al-Zahawi was shot dead on the steps of his house. In an American press that focuses on the deaths of every American soldier, his death was not covered. It was not mentioned. This man's 'crime'? He was one of the greatest living Muslim Calligraphers in the world. The sectarian violence continues. On the day al-Zahawi died, police found another twelve bodies that had been picked up, tortured, and then executed.' It's horrible and horrifying to think that for ever one American who has died in this War, approximately two hundred Iraqi civilians have died. It actually works out to one hundred eighty-nine. These aren't victims of one side, the terrorists, but men, women and children caught in the crossfire. I wanted to remind everyone that, while the media focuses in on the American dead, there are those whose only 'crime' was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Qur'an tells us that the most evil of men is the man who will order others to commit an act of evil in the name of God. I do not and will not blame our soldiers for those deaths. I blame Bush for them. I blame Sadr and bin Laden as well. The man who is ordered to kill is far less to blame than the man who orders him to pull the trigger. Those who will order the deaths of another at a distance is far more to blame for that death than any other should be.

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Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 20:01:03 GMT

Well, now. Shucks, as we say in Texas. Shuffling my feet in the dust. Golly Gee. Glad I could provide something of worth to the discussion. Sure wish I could meet some of you guys. Are you gonna help me demand from Countdown a follow up on the Dictator Directive or what?

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Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 20:08:48 GMT

Inde, I'd love it if the media as a whole would cover it a bit more too, not just Countdown.

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C A, Tuscaloosa, Al — Wed, 30 May 2007 20:13:17 GMT

HEY Countdown: Independent wants a follow-up on the Dictator Directive. Independent is deserving by way of the diplomacy shown here. Please.

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Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 20:14:31 GMT

Pam, I love semi-sweet too. Inde, thanks, and right now, budgets in my house are tight so we have been eating chili for a week and have another week to go. LOL

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Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 20:20:18 GMT

Independent - Yes!! I have been so caught up in "rage" that I have not mentioned this since last week. Countdown, will you PLEASE follow up and cover the Dictator Directive? This is truly a most terrifying directive, in conjunction with it being held by a completely deranged man in the White House!!

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Larry Charleston, SC — Wed, 30 May 2007 20:45:13 GMT

Pam, I agree. The war needs to end. We simply disagree on how to do it. I truly believe that if we walk away hundreds of thousands more will die , albiet all Iraqis. I also think that the terrorist cannot be left unchecked. An honest disagreement. Now I have a major disagreement with your assessment of our current president, especially compared to former presidents. If Carter and Clinton would not have ignored the problems maybe the current president would not have to worry about protecting America from the jihadists. I admit that I said probably much worse things about Carter when he ignored our hostages, allowed 21% prime rate and 12% inflation, then to top it off gave away the Panama Canal. So there, we can have a civilized discussion with totally opposite points of view.

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scott henderson nv — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:04:34 GMT

Bush’s surge has brought the Iranians to the negotiating table. The Iraq conflict cannot end in a positive way without Iranian involvement, hopefully those opposed to the war will support the administration’s effort at diplomacy with Iran. The negotiations will probably leave Iran with more power in the region that is comfortable, but that is the price we will have to pay for the ill-advised adventure.

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Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:07:17 GMT

Larry from Charleston, let me start with this. Osama bin Muhammed bin Laden is a product of George H. W. Bush. So were the Taliban. Clinton hardly ignored the problem of bin Laden, but had problems taking him out. Our CIA, thanks to Regan and Bush, was not only staffed heavily with Republicans who didn't care what Clinton thought, but had a decided lack of Middle Eastern opperatives. Most of our opperatives were set up for Eastern Europe and Russia, and the rest were trained for China. Even after eight years, Clinton was not able to change the CIA all that much. In 1998, Clinton ordered the hit on bin Laden, and the CIA refused to do it. They quibbled about whether or not they could legally do so. The law is clear that the CIA cannot take out a standing head of state. Bin Laden, a former client of the CIA Ghost Wars is a great book, by the way), was semi-protected by that past association. Clinton then ordered the creation of the Hellfire Missle and the drone aircraft that carry them. Unfortunately, they were both ready for deployment a month after Clinton left office and Bush had recinded the order to kill bin Laden. One of Regan's national security advisors once said of Clinton that he was possibly too obsessed with taking down bin Laden. Clinton successfully took down Al-Qaida's predecessor organization and jailed their leaders. With the help of other nations, he managed to get the men who bombed the Cole and have them arrested, tried and some sentenced to death. I hardly think that Clinton ignored the issue.

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C A, Tuscaloosa, Al — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:13:23 GMT

Larry: Kudos man. Some healthy disagreement and perhaps some good points. I like it. Your post is not addressed to me but to Pam, but thanks. As for me Larry, not so sure any President could have stopped the current wave of terrorism. This is a new age and those who chose to be our enemies, for whatever reason, have learned the only kind of war that they can sustain for a period of time is a terroist war. The way to fight it off is to turn one against the other so they remain disorgainized and destroy the strength and capabilities of each other. They cannot be beaten using old conventional war tactics. You can slay many, but you cannot slay them all. And it is the beliefs they hold that keep them alive and active, not the numbers they have to pit against their proclaimed enemies. There is a deep divide and suspicion between east and west that goes back centuries, and it will not be alleviated until the children in all parts of the world are taught kindness and tolerance rather than hatred.

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Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:20:59 GMT

Larry - cool: Yes, civilized. I disagree that Carter and Clinton ignored the problems but find it very interesting that you omit the 8 years between them when Reagan was in office. Also, I believe but am willing to be corrected if I am wrong, that you will find that Carter did not ignore the hostages. I remember this vividly as I was living in DC at the time. We started a military action to rescue them that was disastrous because our equipment and our forces were not appropriate to the terrain. Remember the tanks stuck in the sand? I don't like to blame our military but I remember thinking at the time that we should have known better. Our Military told Carter that we could successfully free the hostages via this approach and we failed. Then we went into serious negotiations. Read Old Man Bush's part in all this sometime. Almost the entire Carter presidency was overwhelmed by the Iran issue. The economics had been heading in those directions for the previous 12 years and Carter was in office for only 4. I can not blame him for those items. I, even to this date, have not decided how I feel about the Canal. In any event, even if you disagree on how Carter and Clinton handled any of this, what I don't think you will disagree with is that they both handled things legally and within both the letter and spirit of the Constitution. Now, contrasting that with the current administration, what has this administration done for the country in the last 6 years? Everything they have done, as far as I can see, has been if not outright unconstitutional at least has been on the very borderline. The best I can say for them is that they were incompetent. The worst is that they have destroyed the very doctrine of goverment upon which the country was founded. I sincerely want to hear back specifics that would refute my statements. I really mean that. If I can find something that I can point to that means Mr. Bush is not an outright criminal, I will sleep better. Thank you.

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Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:30:13 GMT

Larry – Well at least it’s a start. Yes, we strongly disagree on how this war should end; however, this “war” should have never begun. I don’t know if we agree there. I agree that thousands more Iraqis will die; however, I sincerely believe they will die if we remain. The situation in Iraq is a civil war now and the very fact that George W. Bush ignored advice from seasoned experts regarding the religious conflicts, dating hundreds of years; ignored advice that stated exactly what would happen after Sadaam was overthrown; ignored intelligence reports clearly stating Sadaam Hussein most likely DID NOT possess WMD; ignored military advice regarding the number of troops needed after the overthrow of the regime, to the degree these people were fired or demoted; refuses to see that he cannot win based on an Iraqi Civil War (caused by him) and is only sending more Americans to their deaths and refuses to listen to any advice that doesn’t fit in with his “plan” is, in my opinion, criminal. I take exception with what you said regarding President Clinton. Clinton was chastised, ridiculed and told he was overreacting by the Republican Congress regarding Osama bin Laden regarding Clinton’s belief bin Laden was an imminent threat to the United States. It is on the record Larry. One member of Congress, whose name I cannot recall right now but I will look up, flat out told President Clinton he was “wagging the tail” about bin Laden in “Clinton’s attempts to divert his personal problems”. This is also on the record Larry. President Clinton did try to kill bin Laden and the Bush Administration came to office and acted like their s**t didn’t stink, Clinton was stupid and George W. Bush and his Administration did NOTHING and completely dropped the ball on bin Laden. President Clinton has admitted he failed, but stated “at least I tried, I tried and I failed.” I could NEVER imagine those words coming out of the mouth of George W. Bush. Moving on to President Carter, I agree inflation was high, interest rates were high and the hostage crisis sealed his fate. I STRONLY disagree with your statement , “Carter ignored our hostages.” When Carter’s rescue mission failed, several military brass stated it was a brilliant plan; however, one plane turned around because the pilot felt he was entering a dangerous sand storm. This proved incorrect; however, the mission failed and badly. You cannot blame that on President Carter, and again, many military brass have stated that President Carter was not to blame. Also, he did not ignore the hostages Larry and that is an unfair statement. One hostage, interviewed several years ago, stated that he HATED Carter during the crisis; however, after he was released and read much of what had happened, he thanked President Carter personally. The hostage also told Carter, “I know President Carter you lost the election because of me”. President Carter told him, “I cared MORE about your safe return than my re-election.” The hostage then stated, “ I will always be grateful to him (Carter) for my life.” I also believe President Carter is THE most honest and decent president this country has ever had. The Panama Canal was a blunder and I agree. However, nothing that Presidents Carter or Clinton did, in my opinion, even comes close to the atrocities of George W. Bush. Also, it does bother me that Reagan/Bush are given a “pass” on the stupendous deficit they created from the right, in addition to the horrible economy under George Herbert Walker Bush; however, President Carter is always slammed about high inflation and interest rates from the same people on the right. In addition, President Clinton receives ZERO credit for eliminating the deficit and leaving office with a surplus from the right Can you explain that to me Larry? Also, on a final note, I sincerely believe many have mistakenly blamed President Carter directly for the hostage crisis and have never let this animosity go. I also believe they are wrong. Thank you again Larry.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:34:47 GMT

CA, you mentioned the suspicions that run East-West, and I can pin point a lot of where those start. Bernard Lewis' book What Went Wrong is a great read for why the Middle East is so suspicious of and angry towards the West. The reasons why the West is suspicous of the East lie in Catholicism of the Middle Ages, along with how close the Muslims came to conquering Europe. Had they been locked out of France by defenses in the Pyrranese, and been repelled at the Siege of Vienna, they would have overrun the area. This was used as a boogy man scare scare tactic by many priests and kings in that age. As for this war, the tactics used by the French Army in the waning days of the French-Algerian War were very successful, even if they lost the war because of politics. Another interesting book to read is Savage War of Peace by Alistair Horne.

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Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:37:13 GMT

Nice post - Scott, nv. I really like the tone of this blog tonigh!

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Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:40:14 GMT

Scott - The democrats have been PREACHING diplomacy from day one!! I want to be kind, but how can you state, "hopefully those opposed to the war will support the administration’s effort at diplomacy with Iran" is just WRONG!! I'm sorry Scott, but you are preaching to the choir and one that has been singing for years. Also, many of your post are in direct conflict with your statement. I feel you are making it now because the Administration has FINALLY awoke and is "attempting" to listen to what they have been told for YEARS!! It is the RIGHT that you must worry about Scott, as it has been the RIGHT who has ridiculed those who have stated diplomacy is a crucial aspect for peace and a stable Iraq. I don't want to argue Scott, but Bush, his Administration and those on the right have ridiculed ANYONE, including me, who have stated diplomacy with Iran is necessary. Come on Scott...

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Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:43:29 GMT

Independent - KUDOS!!

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Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:46:05 GMT

MY God - rereading my 5:20 post: should have been the "12 years between them". How could I have forgotten the 4 memorable years of Papa Bush?

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C A, Tuscaloosa, Al — Wed, 30 May 2007 21:50:34 GMT

It is a dangerous game to compare the Presidency of one with the Presidency of another. Such a game is used to either defend the one in office rather than evaluate the same on their own merit, or used to defend the past-Presidency of another without evaluating the same on their own merit. It makes for argument rather than resolution, agreement or agreement to disagree. Suffice it to say all Presidents have had their flaws. All future Presdients will have theirs. It makes little sense to try to declare which had the greater number of flaws, and it matters not if one inherits some bad policies or decisions made by previous Presidents. If good, they will do what they can to make the corrections that are warranted and necessary, and will know their history so as not to repeat the same errors as past Presidents.

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Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 22:12:31 GMT

Now CA - don't you go spoilin' our fun! Larry wanted a little chat and we gave him one. I think he'll get back to us and we'll go on. You're correct of course about truly comparing presidents. However, evaluating a president against his own claims is very valid. So - clearing up the Carter misunderstanding was fair game to me. Do you agree?

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Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 22:18:39 GMT

C A - You made me realize this a long time ago; however, I am glad that I can have a dialogue with Larry that is not filled with hate and name calling. You are correct, as I am MORE than sick and tired of hearing "but Clinton, Clinton, Clinton" as a means to defend Bush. However, I feel good that Larry and I can discuss issues, which I sincerely hope will open our dialogue to being productive rather than insulting. I also credit you and Independent with that!!

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Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 22:34:07 GMT

As I was making my dinner, which amounted to me sticking a bowl of chili in the microwave oven, one thing occurred to me that I have never seen really discussed anywhere. I've argued this with a former marine who basically thinks we should bomb Iraq into the ground and who cares if a few 'wogs' die in the process. (I am using that term specifically to indicate his feelings about Muslims not mine!). Our military is not set up for small scale operations. In a sense, I hate to use it this way, but it's kind of like the Death Star. It's massive, big, bloated, and designed to do one thing- take out other big, massive and bloated militaries. It really is vulnerable to small group tactics. Durring the Middle Ages, the Crusaders found themselves at a distinct disadvantage against the Muslims for a number of reasons. One of them was their reliance upon light weight armor and mounted archers. Where the Crusaders would march in and charge, the Muslims would use hit and run tactics. Now, I will warn you, I AM not comparing our military rational in Iraq to that of the Crusaders, nor am I comparing the terrorists to Saladin. What I am comparing is military tactics. Part of why the Irish took to the guerilla tactics is, in part, because that was a very Celtic way of fighting. Our military doesn't need heavy bombers to fight modern wars, but small scale munitions and gattling guns on our planes. In Algeria, the tide of war turned militarily when the French sent in a former Maquisard to fight the Armee de Liberation National. He used tactics that mixed occupation (by placing large groups of soldiers in the population centers) and guerilla tactics such as hit and fade runs on supply depots and ALN entrenchments. It was painstaking work, but it would have won the day had the Fourth Republic not collapsed and the French Government bowed to their own people to grant Algeria its freedom. The big problem with our military is not the men and women who serve in it, but the mentality behind it. The military is still stuck in the Cold War, along with this current administration.

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Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 22:35:10 GMT

CA, you are right that we should not compare presidents. In a sense, we always know now what we didn't know then. Bill Clinton will probably go to his grave regretting that he did not get bin Laden. Presidents can only do what they can within the law (normally), and can only do so much. He tried, but was unsuccessful due to a number of already stated reasons. I know that Carter regrets how he handled the Iran Hostage Crisis. What sticks in my craw is that Bush will never regret what he has done. He seems incapable of understanding that he did something wrong.

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Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 22:38:41 GMT

Independent - "How could I have forgotten the 4 memorable years of Papa Bush?" you state; it's because you have been working tirelessly at diplomacy on this blog since last night. Also, I am stubborn so your work was no easy feat!! KUDOS friend!! As I think I would have forgotten "Papa Bush" if I was handling the "Blog Crisis", which began yesterday and ended today, in large part because of you!! Thank you again!!

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Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Wed, 30 May 2007 22:42:04 GMT

BREAKING NEWS-- "A U.S. CH-47 Chinook helicopter crashes in Afghanistan, killing seven people, NATO officials tell CNN, adding a rescue team was ambushed." This thread has really been healing today and with this horrible news, I hope we can all (Larry and Scott too) come together and take a moment to pray for those killed in this horrible crash. May they rest in peace.

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Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 22:59:29 GMT

Ah Bridgette - at last a hole in your education (smile). Yes, indeedy, our "Military Industrial Complex" is a behemoth as you say. However, there exists, and I am very proud of them, teams of troops who are unsurpassed in covert operations. (CA - here is your cue to give us the real scoop). I hate that we need them but, times being what they are, I am glad that we have them. My major contention about the way we are handling Iraq and the, so called, GWOT, is that we aren't shutting our mouths and deploying our Seals,etc. Too much talk and not enough (effective) action in one sense. As CA mentioned in a posting a few months back: (I was so impressed that I copied it and saved it)"And while you do all this you play the perfect diplomatic game with any nation, friend or foe, willing to sit down and talk and listen to your rhetoric as to how you are their good friend while you remove those in their country or under their care who are your enemy. You help other nations that are friendly and that do not harbour terrorists. We decrease our reputation as being a big bully that sends its military anywhere we wish at any time, and increase our reputation as a world power that will leave all other countries alone, but screw with us, house terrorists, and we will be in and out of your country faster than you can say Bin Laden leaving behind the death and destruction of our enemies they never believed would have been possible."

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Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 23:12:47 GMT

PS: I spent my early twenties in the Monterrey Bay area. That is where the Naval Post Graduate School is. Got to know lots of those guys. Got to know some seals although the real "seal" action is further south in california. Got to tell you, those guys are something else. I know about other covert teams in the other branches of the military but the seals are the only ones with which I have had, er, direct contact.

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Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 23:36:19 GMT

Inde, I know I'm not perfect, but I do know about the Seals and the other covert ops guys. What I'm thinking is that we need to rethink the regular military too. Make them more moble and less gargantuan. I will freely admit that I don't know enough about all the different parts of our military, and some of this may be in place. I tend to think of our covert ops guys as going in and taking out a target then leaving. What I think we need are highly moble units with smaller weapons and the ability to take down smaller opponents. Of course, I'm not fully sure I'm getting what's in my brain out onto the screen right. I think what I'm looking for is a happy medium between the small covert warriors going in and getting out and the more robust, take down an army army. I know we've got stuff that tries to do that in the military already, but I'm not sure that it's very effective. I hope that clarifies what I'm thinking. BTW, I'm currently living not far from FLETC, one of the two Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers in the country, so I understand what you mean by getting to know the people there. On a serious note, I have lived here since '92. I knew a number of men who died in Oklahoma City, so sometimes living near these places can be heart breaking too.

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Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 23:36:35 GMT

Oh - one last clarification before you jump all over me. I realize that "cover" and "guerilla" aren't the same thing. In fact, the training specialization called "urban warfare" is what is closest in our current military speak. We are good at that as well. Keep in mind, however, that the military fights political wars. The "politics" of Iraq called for by our illustrious leader demanded the show in force. Our Military leaders tried to tell him it wouldn't work but look how much good that did. (Note - you guys can relax a little. I know I've been chatting up a storm today but I had the time. Won't have it much from now on so you'll be spared all my diatribes!)

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Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 23:37:48 GMT

Pam, I was very upset to hear about the helicopter going down. This was a tactic used durring the Russian war with Afghanistan too.

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Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Wed, 30 May 2007 23:48:35 GMT

Inde, what CA said was right. Heck, it was what Bill Clinton was doing. Terry Pratchett once said that the hardest thing to do in politics is nothing. Clinton did a lot of creative nothing. He left Brazil, Mexico, and most of Latin America pretty much alone. He kept an eye on Iraq, and tried to help in the Palestine, but he didn't go after Iran. He kept preasure on Afghanistan. Freind or foe, he was pretty even handed. Look what happened, though. Iran moved steadily towards a more true form of democracy. Syria began to slowly move away from full totalitarianism. Brazil and Venezuela were relatively stable. Mexico had its first change of political power in ninety years, and the first that didn't come with blood shed. Cuba loosened up a bit. Bin Laden's mentor was caught and jailed for the first Trade Center attack. The bombers of the Cole were brought to justice. It was a true light touch. The world was slowly moving out of the Cold War and into an era of relative calm. It's part of why I really want to see Bill Richardson as President because I've seen the kind of diplomacy he's capable of. If not President, then Vice President or Secretary of State. The man has a deep respect for the people of the world. Incidentally, Clinton was the first President I ever voted for. I remember how most people thought that Paul Tsongas was going to be the Democrat to go against Bush. He was in the lead, he had the goods, and he was strong. Then WHAM, Bill Clinton came out of left field. So, I'm not counting on Obama, H. Clinton or Edwards right now.

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Independent, Texas — Wed, 30 May 2007 23:58:06 GMT

Bridgette - too cool. Our posts addressing the same topic hit at the same time!! 7:36. What a hoot.

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Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Thu, 31 May 2007 00:24:45 GMT

yep, Inde, it's rather funny really. And you make a very good point. As I said, I don't know enough about modern warfare. I know the difference between a Teutonic Knight and a Knights Hospitaller, heck even a mauser rifle and a javelin. Thank you for the information though. :)

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Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Thu, 31 May 2007 00:33:20 GMT

I don't know if this is going to go through, but what the heck. This isn't spam. "I'm the very model of a modern major general, I know information animal, vegitalbe and mineral. . .I can tell at sight a mauser rifle from a javelin." I was making fun of myself with my last comment. I do know more about ancient warfare than modern, so any help is always welcome Inde. Thanks again.

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Todd, New Orleans, LA — Thu, 31 May 2007 00:54:34 GMT

Someone stop Bridgette before she Gilbert & Sullivan's again! ;)

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Pam Bignardi, San Pedro, California — Thu, 31 May 2007 01:16:39 GMT

Bill - You sir are 100% correct!! When Cindy Sheehan first met with George W. Bush, it was with a group of other grieving parents and before she realized the lies of this war. She begged and pleaded and George W. Bush; however her pleas fell on deaf ears. President Clinton (sorry C A) when being interviewed by Larry King was asked if Bush should agree to a meeting with Cindy Sheehan. President Clinton said yes and went on to explain his answer in a manner that gave me chills. While he was president, a father lost his son in Bosnia. He demanded to meet with President Clinton, as he was furious with him and blamed him for his son's death. President Clinton stated, "I sent his son to battle and his son died. I feel this man had the right to say whatever he wanted to me and he did. He was filled with anger; however, I understood his anger and also felt it was my duty to meet with the father of a young man whom I sent into battle". What a CLASS ACT!! Just typing this has again given me chills. George W. Bush should have done exactly what President Clinton did, for the same reasons and it would have been the right thing to do. President Clinton also stated he would have met with as many parents as requested and did NOT feel his meeting with this “one father” would have caused an "unreasonable precedent." However, President Clinton also stated if it did, he would have met with any parent who requested a meeting, President Clinton, you sir are a man of class - PERIOD!!

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

C A, Tuscaloosa, Al — Thu, 31 May 2007 02:21:04 GMT

Independent: Yes, they do exist, and yes, they can play the terrorist game better than the terrorists. And no, they are not the Seals or Rangers or Green Berets, but yes they are very stealth and deadly. Unleash them and those who mean the US harm or have volunteered to be a human bomb or to place charges in vehicles will think they are living in hell here on earth. They are more hungry than the terrorists, can be even more cruel, and certainly are better trained and equipped. But, you would have to look the other way and shelve the western morality for a period of time. And if you could do this the end result would be astonishing. And no leader (whether a terrorist leader or from a legitimate government) here on this earth would (forgive my French) f--- with us. If you want to end terrorism or the serious threat of terrorism, unleash these people while our diplomats sit, talk and sip tea with the leaders of all countries while these teams (numbering in members from 1 to 12) slit the throats of those leaders of our chosing, the throats of their fanatical war-mongering advisors or religious leader's, and place a silent bullet from a safe distance between the eyes of any person volunteering to commit a terrorist act. Afterwards, act shocked that anyone could do such a thing and promise these countries you will help to hunt the perpetrators down while at the same time do a better job of securing your own borders. Just don't look too closely for the perps somewhere in the Rockies or in mid-state Alabama where you may find a small band of brothers taking a break and doing some serious fishing. That is how you fight terrorism. Not by invading countries at will because you can.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Independent, Texas — Thu, 31 May 2007 04:37:11 GMT

CA - I know and remember from the dark days when this was standard practice. I agree that this is the only effective way to deal with the terrorists. Of course, the real battle would be to keep control over the situation. I've complained about the "show of force" approach but I have to wonder if I really want the Supremely Selected President to actually become accustomed to using this power. I would trust almost anyone else (except for VP Vader) but not this guy. However, I do think that, in the end, it will come to that as our only alternative.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Thu, 31 May 2007 04:45:07 GMT

Wow, Todd, someone got the reference! Most people go. . .'huh?' when I quote a bit of Gilbert and Sulivan. On the other hand, I loved the Animaniacs version of that song. C A, thank you for letting me know. I think what I'm looking to try and explain is something more mobile than we've got, but not along the lines of what you've pointed out. However, I would agree that those methods are how you take out terrorists. The British government occupied Ireland as a whole from around 1250 to 1922. From 1802ish to 1922, any attempt to push Catholic rights was supressed, sometimes crushingly. Durring the 1980's, the Thatcher government again did a lot of crushing, random incarceration, and brutality. All these did was fuel the Nationalist movements. Terrorism always responds to crushing force by multiplying. Once the force was removed in Northern Ireland when Blair took office, the IRA suddenly started to see its power dwindle. It finally had to take the offer given to it in 1967 by the British government. Terrorism has to be cut out by a delicate blade rather than crushed with a hammer. Diplomatically, we preasure governments in the world to build up their economies. The more employed a society is, the less poverty there is, the less terrorism there is. It is not a coincidence that this nation's only real terrorist group, the KKK, was born in the South's ruined economy durring Reconstruction, and died in the the South's growing economy of the 1970's. It took the FBI hunting down the worst of them to help break the organization. However, it is not surprising that this group holds on to the edges where people are poor, jobs are few, and dirt is about the only thing for dinner. Thus, it isn't surprising that the seat of terrorism in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia, a nation with the lowest employment rate of any rich nation in the world. Both F.D. Roosevelt and L.B. Johnson understood this principle. If you can employ people, or at least sustain them, you can keep them from the radicals. A little bit of Socialism prevented a whole lot of Communism in both this nation and in Europe. I know I tend to recomend a lot of books by this author. I recomend Night Watch by Terry Pratchett. It goes into some of this, and helped me to see some of what goes on in the world regarding terrorism, charity and poverty.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Todd, New Orleans, LA — Thu, 31 May 2007 04:48:43 GMT

C A - Sound words in the tradition of Teddy Roosevelt's "walk softly and carry a big stick" doctrine. Talk always, kill when you MUST and kill with purposeful precision. If Bush were a real outdoorsman, then maybe he would see the wisdom in the approach you and, indeed, prudence advocates in a world with thermonuclear and biological weapons. But first, we have to tend to the fires here at home. Before they burn the world.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

C A, Tuscaloosa, Al — Thu, 31 May 2007 12:52:11 GMT

Todd: I agree.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

AM, Pomona, NY — Thu, 31 May 2007 13:03:36 GMT

Al Gore reduced my hopes. He cannot be president. He is a good man but his talents do not include leading with strength. Simple. He is intelligent. He should be listened to - but I watched him dilute, not to say dissolve, the urgency present in the withdrawal of Cindy Sheehan. Gore showed no respect either for the passion she brought, as well as the truthfulness of every statement she has made since the beginning of Crawford TX confrontation. I watched Gore distance himself from Cindy Sheehan even as she was the one who validated his observations most succinctly and most eloquently and, also, in the most timely manner. Cindy Sheehan is a woman who does not dress up and do her hair. She is haggard from pain and struggle. She is difficult to watch. Mr. Gore, honor Cindy Sheehan and maybe I'll reconsider my vote. This is a country which not only eschews Reason, but Compassion and the validity of human emotions. What is left? The physicality of war.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

C A, Tuscaloosa, Al — Thu, 31 May 2007 13:56:59 GMT

Todd: Correct, but I was thinking more in terms of Sheriff Pusser (Walking Tall). Walk softly and carry a big baseball bat. The key however is covert, infiltration and undercover. You don't walk down streets that contain terrorists who hide among the general population or across open fields for all to see where you came from and where you are going. And you don't go in wearing Army issued clothing, helmets with night vision scopes on the top that stick above low built walls, comouflage suits that are not truly comouflaged, wearing heavy army boots you can hear stomping a mile away, carrying 50 lb. packs on your back and expect to get the surprise and first bead you need on your enemy. You blend in with the terrain, the environment and if possible the general populace and strike when least expected. And you use people with an unusual amount of patience for they will wait and wait and wait minus any comforts and without flinching an eyelid until the time is right.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Thu, 31 May 2007 14:41:52 GMT

C A. I don't know how much the Franco-Algerian War has been taught to any of us. I only learned about it because one of my professors assigned a book about it. Towards the end of the war, the French assigned a general to fight the ALN. Here is how he operated. He built up support among various tribes and had their people act as scouts to gather intelligence. They kept tight control of all the borders of Algeria, both friendly and hostile, to stem the flow of arms into the country. He stationed the bulk of his troops in the cities where he also used friendly people to infiltrate the local networks so he could smash them. Most of the ALN fighters were driven out into the countryside where they could be easily fought. He then had small bands of soldiers, helicoptors and small, slow biplanes read for the word that his scouts had found an ALN encampment. Once the word was given, his troops were on their way and would land in a circle around the ALN camp. The biplanes would then straif and bomb the area using low yield explosives. By the time the political war was lost, the ALN had gone from an estimated ten thousand troops to a scant one or two hundred that were still on the loose. I do not know how well this would work in Iraq, but what it proves is that you can break up networks like this. We just need to have had people setting up these kinds of networks in Iraq from day one. We also need to humiliate Sadr. Killing him would make him a martyr, but, if humiliated, he would be neutralized.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Todd, New Orleans, LA — Thu, 31 May 2007 15:33:40 GMT

C A, agreed. The best offense, like the best defense, is invisible. That is why if aliens were here (and interested in anything more than imposing a quarantine on the dangerous space monkeys here), we would be SO screwed. If they have the technology to get here, then their technological processes are well on the way to being indistinguishable from natural process. How does your enemy defeat you when they don't know you are there? All properly run warfare should ideally be cold. Should we survive ourselves (doubtful), that is a lesson we had damn well better learn as a species before we go out amongst the stars. We are in the cradle. Life elsewhere is probably already running full steam. We would stand no chance entering that situation with a confrontational stance. Think the last Zulu nation versus the modern U.S. Air Force - spear and shield versus stealth and particle weapons. It is far better to be like the old white haired guy in the 70's kung fu movie that looks like he is about to fall over. Until he beats down EVERYONE with his hat or some other innocuous object. Sometimes he dispenses his wisdom to the hero and then vanishes. Either way, the old dude wins. Why? Because as you so adroitly pointed out, he is patient and skilled in execution.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

C A, Tuscaloosa, Al — Thu, 31 May 2007 16:14:26 GMT

Na Bridgette: There are large differences between the Franco-Algerian War and the conflcit / occupation in Iraq. Too many to discuss at length here. Your idea of turning one group against the other so that they can destroy one another is fair thinking, but as you said, it would have had to taken place before our invasion of Iraq and shortly after having taken out just Saddam. As far as Sadr please permit me to disagree. If we fought terrorism like we should we need not worry about martyrs. Either put a bullet in his head or while we woah and dine him put a bullet in the heads of his followers. Either way, just eliminate the source or the tools used by the source. Forget the worries about martyrs. No more games. You screw with us, you are dead meat. And if your replacement screws with us he/she are dead meat, and so on. Enough said.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Thu, 31 May 2007 16:52:55 GMT

C A, I know that there are vast differences, though there are many lessons to be learned from the Franco-Algerian War that could have been applied to this conflict. That is, if anyone in this administration actually knew history. Iraq is still a very tribal country, and it is still a culture that puts a lot of emphasis upon sacrifice for one's faith. Sadr's father is a martyr in the eyes of the Shi'a in Baghdad; that is why humiliation is better than death. Or worse, let Sharia take him out. You find a way to frame him for breaking Islamic law and let local legal beliefs take him out. The British once thought the same thing about Seamus O Conghaile (James O'Connell) and the rest of the leadership of the Irish Volunteers. They propped O Conghaile up in a chair after nursing his wounds and shot him. They believed that killing these men would prevent any further rebellion. Instead, they created martyrs. Sadr is too popular to be killed outright. No one would believe Iran or Syria killed him, and they would believe no matter the evidence to the contrary that the US and/or the Sunni murdered him. If we can humiliate him somehow, or get Sharia to execute him, then we neutralize him. Meanwhile, you slowly take out his army; however, if he is humiliated, most of his army would turn from him and disperse so long as any other radical Islamists do not rise to take his place. In Ireland, the executions that did take place only enflamed the Irish. Soon after, the Irish Republican Army headed by deValera, Collins and Marckevichs formed. They went on a campaign that ultimately ended with the bulk of Ireland free. Do not underestimate one popular, charismatic man's death on a population that seeks conflict.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

C A, Tuscaloosa, Al — Thu, 31 May 2007 18:14:41 GMT

Sorry Bridgette: In my scenario to fight terrorism Sadr is a dead man. And if his death encourages others to take up his cause, as long as it remains a harmful terroristic cause, they are dead also. Remember that Sadr was nothing, a joke, not having half the influecne he does now before this conflict errupted in Iraq. And who is to say anyone would know what really happen to him. What if he were to just disappear off the face of the earth. But we are getting way ahead of ourselves Bridgette. Before the invasion Sadr was nothing. So the error of invading Iraq created Sadr and his following. In our type of war on terror we would never have invaded Iraq, so this whole discussion is mote.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

Bridgette Beneshe, Brunswick, GA — Thu, 31 May 2007 19:04:23 GMT

C A, before the Easter Rebellion, O'Connelly was nothing also. He was the least popular of the leaders of the Irish Volunteers. An ardent Communist, he was ridiculed by the other leaders. The people in the IV were not fond of him. Yet, after the Easter Rebellion, he was a martyr. Songs were sung about his bravery. He was immortallized in a poem by Yeats. What someone was before does not mean that their death will not be powerful. The deaths of that handful of people turned the small, struggling Republican movement in Ireland into a monster. It gained strong support for the IRA not only in Ireland, but Britain, the US, and Australia. Money flowed in, arms flowed in. The IRA became unstoppable. You see, it won't be just one person who springs up to take Sadr's place, but a thousand. His death will not harm the terrorists cause, but galvanize it. His humiliation however, will destroy his group faster than a thousand bullets.

Countdown Tuesday: Sheehan, She Out

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